Doug Williams Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I'm not normally one to complain, but this just happened in a Huge ME. So these two ISU-152 each have 6 AP rounds, yet they choose to fire HE at the distant King Tiger? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 If it's very long range, perhaps the terminal velocity is so low that it is more damaging as HE? Could that be it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Possibly.Anyone else have any ideas? I'm much more accustomed to medium and smaller battles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I also figured that the ISU-152 would fire AP at a long range Armored target since HE at that range has a big dispersal effect and will most likely miss...well, unless the target is a Town Square. I'm Still surprised that the HE didn't KO the KT ( crew turned into jelly and busted-up tank )...unless it did alot of damage that we are not aware of yet.Joe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 idk, is choosing the wrong ammo modeled? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Is it the first round that they fired? They might not have wanted to take out the HE and have to reload with AP, or did they fire more than one round of HE? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Is it the first round that they fired? They might not have wanted to take out the HE and have to reload with AP, or did they fire more than one round of HE?That's one of the things that's glossed over "for gameplay reasons": a tank is assumed to have "the right" shell loaded at all times. No "driving round with HE, and having to fire it as the quickest way of clearing the breach for an AP round when an armoured threat is sighted".idk, is choosing the wrong ammo modeled?Don't believe so. There's an algorithm for the TacAI to choose rounds, and sometimes that gets it wrong, but it's a consistent thing, not the loader slamming the wrong ready round into the breech. Usually, if there's an issue, it's because some weighting or other in the algorithm is off-kilter, and it goes into the fixes for the next patch to drag the balance of choices around a bit.AIUI, it's probably because the TacAI thinks (rightly or wrongly) that its AP round can't penetrate the KT at that given range, and there's more chance of doing damage with its HE round. That's the sort of "misapprehension by the TacAI" which (if that's what it is) could be corrected in a patch. It's relatively easy to test, though, as is the actual ability of the AP round to defeat KT front armour at the range in the example (which I can't quite make out in the vid, but it starts with a 2 and has 4 digits I think)...). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 The ranges are 1879 and 1895 meters. They each choose to fire HE rounds twice at the King Tiger. Hits are scored, but (I imagine) little damage is done. Very strange to me that they don't use their AP rounds. Meanwhile, the KT has taken out two of their brethren, using AP rounds.Here is a link to the actual MP4 file that I recorded with FRAPS, which should be higher quality than the YT video. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/33457409/RT.mp4 I'm gonna go ahead and call this a bug. Would anyone like to do some testing? I have to work all weekend and Monday.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Assuming the KTs are facing the ISU-152s I suspect HE is being used because 152mm AP has no chance of penetrating any part of the KT frontal armor. HE has no chance either but they have more of it to waste. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share Posted January 23, 2016 Assuming the KTs are facing the ISU-152s I suspect HE is being used because 152mm AP has no chance of penetrating any part of the KT frontal armor. HE has no chance either but they have more of it to waste.Ah, well if that's the case I'm probably screwed then, cause I'm sure there is more than one KT. Can't remember I've ever used the ISU-152 before, but I was assuming it's AP round could penetrate. What Soviet round can penetrate a KTs frontal armor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) It's possible the game is even cleverer than we think. I've just run a very quick and dirty test with KT vs ISU-152s at just over 2k range.Tight arcs on the KT to prevent them firing. Once the 152 spotted the KT its first two rounds, one which fell short and the other went very long were HE, but the third round was AP. This also missed, but the next two rounds were AP, both of which hit without penetrating. One on the turret front the other on the hull front.So it's possible the ISU will initially fire HE to help get the range, as it has more of these rounds to waste, before switching to AP. Not that it makes any difference as the AP round doesn't look like it can penetrate the KT frontally anyways at 2k range P Edited January 23, 2016 by Pete Wenman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Well, if a 122/152 round can't cause significant damage to a KT, ( HE or AP ) then something isn't right...That KT shouldn't be able to return fire as if nothing ever happened.Maybe something for BF to look into. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinkin Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Not an expert on the TAC AI or the inner workings of tank gunnery it simulates - so I leave that to others. But would a ISU 152 be asked to fight a tank battle on such open terrain given its low rate of fire and slow ground movement? Would the Soviet crew be trained to stand toe-to-toe with the KTs crew trained on it's tank fighting optics having a full load of AP?Thanks Doug ... it's an interesting fire fight for sure.Kevin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Assuming the KTs are facing the ISU-152s I suspect HE is being used because 152mm AP has no chance of penetrating any part of the KT frontal armor. HE has no chance either but they have more of it to waste.Hope for spalling/concussive effects? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 We should keep in mind that the ISU-152 sports a low velocity gun that was not optimized for AT work. Its AP round was adequate for the occasional medium tank that might pop up at close to moderate range, but it was never intended to go toe to toe against a KT at the ranges listed here. It would be completely outclassed and its best tactic might be to fire smoke and get out of Dodge.Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 (edited) What Soviet round can penetrate a KTs frontal armor?122mm and 100mm (although 100mm may be dependent on APBC ammunition which may not have been used during WW2). 122mm should be effective against the front turret plate out to roughly 700m or so (going from memory here so don't quote me, and also would depend on what armor quality rating CMx2 assumes). Presently it will also penetrate the mantlet out to at least 1000m but that is a bug that will be corrected in the next patch. Edited January 23, 2016 by Vanir Ausf B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 Well, if a 122/152 round can't cause significant damage to a KT, ( HE or AP ) then something isn't right...That KT shouldn't be able to return fire as if nothing ever happened.Maybe something for BF to look into. Which 122mm round are you talking about? The M-30 based Howitzer of the SU-122 or the A-19 high velocity tank gun of the ISU-122/JS-2. Not all 122mm rounds are the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 (edited) Womble - he is talking about A-19. The short howitzer doesn't have a chance in hell of damaging a King Tiger from the front, at any range. The side with HEAT maybe, the front not a chance, HE or plain AP not a chance. The King is a beast; the strongest guns of the war need close ranges to have any chance from the front. And then to the turret only or lower hull only - the glacis (150mm at 50 degrees) is just hopeless. Spalling maybe at close range, penetration - no.The normal way is to use crossfire, because realistically it is crazy to take them on in the frontal arc. Even vs the sides, the higher end guns are needed; vanilla Russian 76mm or US 75mm are insufficient. Edited January 24, 2016 by JasonC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 24, 2016 Author Share Posted January 24, 2016 Obviously, I chose poorly. Should have done more research before making my purchases. Live and learn. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 24, 2016 Share Posted January 24, 2016 Obviously, I chose poorly.Depends on what the mission was. The ISU-152 is an excellent support weapon against prepared positions. As a battlefield HE chucker it is hard to beat. But if you expect to meet tanks, you should bring along something with a higher velocity gun.Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Live and learn.ha, you think you are gonna survive this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 25, 2016 Share Posted January 25, 2016 Michael E - there is nothing wrong with the SU-152 or ISU-152 as an "animal killer" against earlier German heavy tanks, like Tiger Is and Panthers. It can reliably kill both out to 1200 meters, more with the right plate and aspect etc. That is a very useful trait in, e.g, mid 1943, when Russian AFVs with that characteristic are very scarce, or non-existent. It just doesn't have the chops to face a King Tiger. Little does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share Posted January 26, 2016 Depends on what the mission was. The ISU-152 is an excellent support weapon against prepared positions. As a battlefield HE chucker it is hard to beat. But if you expect to meet tanks, you should bring along something with a higher velocity gun.MichaelYea, it's a ginormous, fairly flat farmland map. Meeting engagement. My oppo is gonna have fun with this turkey shoot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 Michael E - there is nothing wrong with the SU-152 or ISU-152 as an "animal killer" against earlier German heavy tanks, like Tiger Is and Panthers. It can reliably kill both out to 1200 meters, more with the right plate and aspect etc. That is a very useful trait in, e.g, mid 1943, when Russian AFVs with that characteristic are very scarce, or non-existent. It just doesn't have the chops to face a King Tiger. Little does.Perhaps, but my point is that, say, an SU-100 could do so more reliably.Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted January 27, 2016 Share Posted January 27, 2016 (edited) Michael - in 1945, sure. But there aren't any for a year and a half, when there are SU-152s. Just saying... Edited January 27, 2016 by JasonC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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