Contiinued LOF glitch

[Warts 'n' all]

Oh yes.... I'm too rubbish to take on a human opponent.

[Bulletpoint]

See Muzzleflash's post above (#10)

 

That was actually the post I was replying to.

 

I believe MuzzleFlash was wrong. Probably he had "toggle artificially bright night graphics" on and didn't notice that time was passing. It only let him target distant objects because the sun had come up while he was setting up his defence.

[slysniper]

It has crossed my mind that what I have done on night scenarios, or as a matter of fact, any scenario that has visual conditions is that when I start set up. I check the distance right at first that units can see, try to find the max. range for all units and then use that as a gage for my set up.

 

In other words, I know for a fact no one can see past 150 meters, does not mean they will see anything at the distance, just the possibility of it. That at least helps me know at what ranges to place my units to key areas I want defended. But getting them to actually spot something in them areas is a real guess since you never know for sure. But in general, if it looks possible, it is.

 

But again the sight line is not a way of making sure it is possible.

[Muzzleflash1990]

That was actually the post I was replying to.

 

I believe MuzzleFlash was wrong. Probably he had "toggle artificially bright night graphics" on and didn't notice that time was passing. It only let him target distant objects because the sun had come up while he was setting up his defence.

 

Well, it is very simple to test, like I did, just fire up a night battle. But to spare some time, my test (also I only spent about 5mins so nothing to do with the sun moving):

 

I QB attack in Red Thunder at night as russians, think it was 4:00 AM. During planning I made target lines many hundreds meters, at least up to 900m. Full blue lines.

 

After starting the game I ordered some SMG infantry and a Maxim to fire at about ~800m. Full blue line. The maxim fired and my SMG units did not. I also tried moving an SU-12? around and gave it fire orders about 1km away. Also full blue line and on the third shot it hit.

 

Of course we know that units will not spot each other at that ranges (edit: as slysniper just said), it is only the target tool that let me do it.

 

I initially concluded this behaviour first in CMBS. In the tutorial mission you have some ukranians without NV and some americans with. And I wondered why I was able to target so far with blue lines with the ukrainians since they had no NV. But of course this is game design. In some cases, imagine a group of enemies letting out a ton lead and tracers. You might not see individual units, but surely you should be able to area target due to muzzle flashes ( ) and whatever.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[Pak40]

That was actually the post I was replying to.

 

I believe MuzzleFlash was wrong. Probably he had "toggle artificially bright night graphics" on and didn't notice that time was passing. It only let him target distant objects because the sun had come up while he was setting up his defence.

 

Maybe that happened to the OP but Muzzleflash said that he did a test at night. I'm pretty sure he didn't take hours to set up a test. It probably took him just a few minutes if that long.

[Bulletpoint]

Maybe that happened to the OP but Muzzleflash said that he did a test at night. I'm pretty sure he didn't take hours to set up a test. It probably took him just a few minutes if that long.

 

Sorry - I confused Muzzleflash with the original poster Carry on...

[Bulletpoint]

I just decided to do something useful for a change, so I tested this.

 

On my computer, during night battles, I can only do a target line to a max distance of exactly 400 metres. This goes for infantry and armour.

 

 

Settings: Quick battle, night. CMBN 2.12. Target line with LOF to empty ground.I tested both during setup and once the game starts.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Bulletpoint

[Muzzleflash1990]

Got some interesting results. Just tried to replicate Bulletpoint in CMBN v2.12. I had the same result as just you, max 400m. Then I tried again and I ended up with the same map again. But this time I had no problems targeting 1200m and farther (further?)!!. The difference? The first test the time was 2AM. The second test it was 3AM. I'm not sure how much difference that hour makes in September, which was the ingame time for the test?

 

We are mid July, and although I am in the city, it doesn't begin to get bright until the time is closer to 4 than to 3.

 

Anyway, for planning purposes, the LOS tool should only be considered as a maximum theoretical thermaling telescope x-ray device. You are not gonna spot some infantry by sight alone in WW2 during the night, unless you got a full moon and get lucky or somefink.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[womble]

Kinda depends what timezone the game's showing, too. I assume it's GMT, which is a fairly good match for "local sun time". During the war, AIUI, Normandy was on CEST, Berlin double-summertime, which effectively put the clock 2 hours ahead of the sun at the (small westerly) longitude of Normandy. September GMT, though, at that latitude, sunup should be closer to 6 than 5, and the predawn not til well after 4. And if it's Berlin summertime, dawn wouldn't be til 8 on the clock. And the UK was on "double summertime" during the war (an hour ahead in winter, 2 in summer), so UK time actually matched CE(S)T. Whichever, though, Dawn and Sunset would both be made later, not earlier and 3AM is much too early for light to be getting significantly different, even in June.

 

However, another thing to consider is the phase of the moon and cloud cover. I'm pretty sure that the strength of moonlight is modelled. In a scenario, the date and time are fixed by the designer; I don't know how it's determined for QBs. If it's random, differences between game starts could be due to that. I think it's probably best to do testing of this system in the scenario editor, where you have precise control over the date that the internal almanac is using, unless I'm misremembering and BFC or someone in the know can correct my misapprehension.

[Bulletpoint]

Didn't occur to me to check the accurate time of the quick battle, just booted it up to do a quick check and then I closed it.

 

But I did do a bit more testing before quitting. I ran some infantry close to where intel said there would be enemy. I found I had to get within 50 metres for them to spot my guys.

[womble]

During the war, AIUI, Normandy was on CEST, Berlin double-summertime...

Correction: just a single hour of DST for the Continent. Britain was on double summertime. I thought I'd edited that double there out after I went and fact-checked my first thoughts...

[Pak40]

Kinda depends what timezone the game's showing, too. I assume it's GMT, which is a fairly good match for "local sun time". During the war, AIUI, Normandy was on CEST, Berlin double-summertime, which effectively put the clock 2 hours ahead of the sun at the (small westerly) longitude of Normandy. September GMT, though, at that latitude, sunup should be closer to 6 than 5, and the predawn not til well after 4. And if it's Berlin summertime, dawn wouldn't be til 8 on the clock. And the UK was on "double summertime" during the war (an hour ahead in winter, 2 in summer), so UK time actually matched CE(S)T. Whichever, though, Dawn and Sunset would both be made later, not earlier and 3AM is much too early for light to be getting significantly different, even in June.

 

However, another thing to consider is the phase of the moon and cloud cover. I'm pretty sure that the strength of moonlight is modelled. In a scenario, the date and time are fixed by the designer; I don't know how it's determined for QBs. If it's random, differences between game starts could be due to that. I think it's probably best to do testing of this system in the scenario editor, where you have precise control over the date that the internal almanac is using, unless I'm misremembering and BFC or someone in the know can correct my misapprehension.

 

There's going to be little difference in sunrise depending on the latitude. Even the little difference between Normandy and Holland will give you different sunset times. You can play around with day/night cycles on this Day and Night World Map.

The link above is set for Eindhoven at 4am on June 21

 

I have no idea if CM goes into this much depth with it's location and day/night cycles, but it's fun to play around with.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Pak40

[Bulletpoint]

Might it be something about the moon?

 

If the phase of the moon is selected by random, then in some night missions, you'll have a whole lot more visibility than in others.

[BLSTK]

Oh yes.... I'm too rubbish to take on a human opponent.

 

Looks like I've finally met my match. Hmmm. What does "Rubbish Times Two" look like? We'll have to play H2H sometime to find out.

 

And don't worry about the "human" part in "opponent". No one has ever accused me of being that.

[RockinHarry]

Did check moon phases for 1944 some time ago and found them to be correct in the game according to this table (in german). In example at D-Day there was full moon, at June 20th new moon and so on. Lighting conditions change accordingly, although it´s not visually apparent in the game.

http://www.wissen-info.de/kalender/mondphasen/1944.php

[Warts 'n' all]

I'm not sure what "Rubbish Times Two" looks like. Twice as many warts, perhaps.

[womble]

Isn't it the terrible sequel to "Rubbish Times"? They couldn't even come up with a decent tagline for it. I thought it went straight to video.

[BLSTK]

You nailed it, womble. That was the title of the BAR - Before Action Report.

 

You might say Warts and I raised the "bar". And then lowered it.

Edited July 18, 2015 by BLSTK

[General Jack Ripper]

Might it be something about the moon?

 

If the phase of the moon is selected by random, then in some night missions, you'll have a whole lot more visibility than in others.

 

Yes, the phase of the moon has a direct effect on the ability to spot at night. Not only the moon phase, but also prevailing weather conditions. This has been true ever since CMSF came out.

[Buzz]

Don't appear to be getting the same glitch. Maybe I am not setting parameters properly?

Anyone have a save game or test scenario(s) I could try demonstrating the LOF "glitch"? 

Thanks,

Buzz ... not a moon grog 

[sburke]

Well, it is very simple to test, like I did, just fire up a night battle. But to spare some time, my test (also I only spent about 5mins so nothing to do with the sun moving):

 

I QB attack in Red Thunder at night as russians, think it was 4:00 AM. During planning I made target lines many hundreds meters, at least up to 900m. Full blue lines.

 

After starting the game I ordered some SMG infantry and a Maxim to fire at about ~800m. Full blue line. The maxim fired and my SMG units did not. I also tried moving an SU-12? around and gave it fire orders about 1km away. Also full blue line and on the third shot it hit.

 

Of course we know that units will not spot each other at that ranges (edit: as slysniper just said), it is only the target tool that let me do it.

 

I initially concluded this behaviour first in CMBS. In the tutorial mission you have some ukranians without NV and some americans with. And I wondered why I was able to target so far with blue lines with the ukrainians since they had no NV. But of course this is game design. In some cases, imagine a group of enemies letting out a ton lead and tracers. You might not see individual units, but surely you should be able to area target due to muzzle flashes ( ) and whatever.

 

 

couple items as there is some conflicting information in your notes

 

I tried CMRT, CMBN and CMFI  I set up units, checked LOS, ran a turn then checked LOS/LOF again.  It never changed

 

As to your firing tests, don't use an SMG team trying to fire out to 800 meters.  I think they will ignore that due to range.  Pick a weapon like you did with the Maxim and I think you will find no issue.

 

 

In summary I can find no change in LOS/LOF between set up and first turn.  Any issues I noticed in a unit being able to target at that distance depended on what they were equipped with.  As to your point a few posts after this, I absolutely agree.  That you can target at that distance doesn't mean you will see a unit at that distance.

[Muzzleflash1990]

couple items as there is some conflicting information in your notes

 

I tried CMRT, CMBN and CMFI  I set up units, checked LOS, ran a turn then checked LOS/LOF again.  It never changed

 

As to your firing tests, don't use an SMG team trying to fire out to 800 meters.  I think they will ignore that due to range.  Pick a weapon like you did with the Maxim and I think you will find no issue.

 

 

In summary I can find no change in LOS/LOF between set up and first turn.  Any issues I noticed in a unit being able to target at that distance depended on what they were equipped with.  As to your point a few posts after this, I absolutely agree.  That you can target at that distance doesn't mean you will see a unit at that distance.

 

I'm not sure what is conflicting; I document observed ingame behaviour. Maybe I was unclear: I argue that I had (full blue LOS) at long ranges before planning and I also have it after. That I have "too" long ranges for during the night for the eye too see (unless full moon which I did not consider for this test) The test with SMG was just to further reinforce that the LOS tool is not burdened by the limitations of human eyesight or weapon engineering.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[ChappyCanuck]

Muzzleflash's theory seems to be the only one that makes sense.  If I have one panzer, 2 x ATGs and several HMGs who, in set up, have a full blue and clear LOS/LOF to a dedicated kill zone, only to have it greatly reduced once the game start button is pressed, how can it be anything else? Unless it is an LOF glitch.

[sburke]

I'm not sure what is conflicting; I document observed ingame behaviour. Maybe I was unclear: I argue that I had (full blue LOS) at long ranges before planning and I also have it after. That I have "too" long ranges for during the night for the eye too see (unless full moon which I did not consider for this test) The test with SMG was just to further reinforce that the LOS tool is not burdened by the limitations of human eyesight or weapon engineering.

This for example

Just performed a quick test: fired up a night QB in RT. The LO(S/F) tool ignores night time. You can give target orders against buildings and terrain more than 1km away if you want - well beyond visual range at night. You can also give target orders that are out of range of the weapons, the unit will just not shoot. I'm not sure the fog restricts the range of the LOS tool though.

Perhaps we should start over with a description of the issue(s) as there are several observations in this thread and they are on differing aspects.

So for example

Los/lof check during setup not valid on first turn (regardless of environmentals) original post I think

Los/ lof environmentals ignored during setup (I personally have not found this one to be true)

Etc etc

[sburke]

Muzzleflash's theory seems to be the only one that makes sense.  If I have one panzer, 2 x ATGs and several HMGs who, in set up, have a full blue and clear LOS/LOF to a dedicated kill zone, only to have it greatly reduced once the game start button is pressed, how can it be anything else? Unless it is an LOF glitch.

What is the theory? I do not see a difference in Los/lof between set up and first turn. However as muzzleflash agrees, that I can area fire to a distant location does not mean I can see a unit there. What it means is I can identify that distance, but unless a unit takes some action that allows me to spot it (by firing for example) I may not see it. There was another thread a while back where the op was playing a scenario where a unit could be spotted if it were firing from a few AS away, but otherwise you had to actually be in the same AS to spot it.

I think we should clarify just exactly what is the issue being perceived and then theorize about an explanation. I don't think we are quite there yet. Not enough for me to submit anything anyway.