A very basic question...or, How Not To Be Seen

[Bud Backer]

Python humour aside, this is a pretty important question that leaves me very very uncertain.

I'm playing 4 games right now against a number of opponents. I *think* I'm being, if not clever, at least not totally idiotic in trying to conceal my units, to move them slowly and carefully.

My trouble is, I have no idea just how effective I am at it. Sometimes I'm fired on, sometimes I'm not. It's hard to gauge whether that's because moving slow, hiding etc are working, or if they set fire arcs and I'm simply not in range, but clearly in plain sight.

I fear making the same bad moves over and over, and not realizing that I'm standing in the open with a Megaphone and a bright yellow jumpsuit!

Edited January 23, 2015 by Bud_B

[kohlenklau]

Maybe when our battles finish up I can tell you my password and you can watch a few turns from my side and do some analysis?

But just letting you know that when the yellow jump suits get poked full of red holes they do get less visible.

[MOS:96B2P]

My trouble is, I have no idea just how effective I am at it. Sometimes I'm fired on, sometimes I'm not. It's hard to gauge whether that's because moving slow, hiding etc are working, or if they set fire arcs and I'm simply not in range, but clearly in plain sight.

I fear making the same bad moves over and over, and not realizing that I'm standing in the open with a Megaphone and a bright yellow jumpsuit!

 

When I want to check something out I will sometimes load a test scenario in hot seat mode or scenario author test mode.  I then give both sides small target arcs (if I am testing spotting) so they don't try to kill each other and ruin the test.  I then practice moving the various type of units around with different move orders and different terrain to try and figure out what works best in what situation.  

[c3k]

LOL. Personally, I never test something when I'm playing. There is no "morality value" attached to that, just my personal preference. And, no, I have no "issue" if my oppo tests something before sending a turn. I find I learn the hard-won lessons better.

 

Passwords: I always send my password, as a courtesy, after a game. Again, that's me.

 

Having said all that, if you really don't know if you're visible, then test it. But, getting down there with the camera, setting a few "test" movement points and searching with target lines, can give you a lot of information.

 

In a test environment, throw some units down: Give them different movement commands, and watch, from hotseat, whether a spotting unit can see them or if there is a difference based on movement speed. Fanatic units will adhere to your orders. Usually. Give everyone tight covered arcs.

[womble]

If you want to know something like this, running some generic "exercise" scenarios hotseat where you know the parameters and can watch from both sides as both sides do the "sensible" human-controlled thing (rather than one of them the headless chicken AI-controlled thing like you get in scenario-test mode; you also get a better idea of what the units can see, rather than everything being visible from "no units clicked") can be informative. Getting the hang of that sort of knowledge will save you having to set up specific test scenarios every time you bump into something you're unsure about. Helps with knowing things like ammo use by support missions and getting a feel for baseline times to do things like demolitions and ranging in a direct-lay mortar under controlled conditions rather than in the chaos of the battlefield.

Edited January 23, 2015 by womble

[sburke]

LOL. Personally, I never test something when I'm playing. There is no "morality value" attached to that, just my personal preference. And, no, I have no "issue" if my oppo tests something before sending a turn. I find I learn the hard-won lessons better.

 

Passwords: I always send my password, as a courtesy, after a game. Again, that's me.

 

Having said all that, if you really don't know if you're visible, then test it. But, getting down there with the camera, setting a few "test" movement points and searching with target lines, can give you a lot of information.

 

In a test environment, throw some units down: Give them different movement commands, and watch, from hotseat, whether a spotting unit can see them or if there is a difference based on movement speed. Fanatic units will adhere to your orders. Usually. Give everyone tight covered arcs.

same here.

 

Spotting is such a variable thing.  For example if you move a unit past a hedgerow opening and maybe your opponent doesn't spot it, but does get a sound contact icon.  They are now likely going to set up or focus on that location.  Movement to avoid giving stuff away can mean at times actually looping around to get to a location in order not to give away your movement.  Also a little suppression goes a long way, a cowering unit isn't gonna spot much so if you can drop a couple mortar rounds to make suspected outposts blind, so much the better.

 

I pretty much assume that if I don't have really good concealment, like a wall, hedgerow, rising terrain or house between me and them, all that slow cautious movement isn't likely helping much.  They are probably watching me and chuckling.

[A Canadian Cat]

They are probably watching me and chuckling.

Naw, they are watching you and aiming

[Bud Backer]

Naw, they are watching you and aiming

 

That's what it feels like, yes! Even behind hedgerows, even hidden. Grrrr

 

Swine enemy! 

[Baneman]

That's what it feels like, yes! Even behind hedgerows, even hidden. Grrrr

 

Swine enemy! 

 

I believe the technical term is "Schweinhunde !"

 

I refuse to believe those war comics I read as a kid did not prepare me adequately for CM !    At least they taught me how to curse the enemy !

[John1966]

I refuse to believe those war comics I read as a kid did not prepare me adequately for CM !

 

Yep, the Haunted Tank is a great source book...

Edited January 24, 2015 by John1966

[BLSTK]

And Now For Something Completely Different.

 

 

(With my condolences to the family of Mrs. B.J. Smegma).

Edited January 24, 2015 by BLSTK

[Bud Backer]

You understood the choice of words in my thread title, didn't you???

 

That video does indeed show the importance of Not Being Seen. Enough of that rotten old BBC show...

[Warts 'n' all]

And Now For Something Completely Different.

 

 

(With my condolences to the family of Mrs. B.J. Smegma).

Classic!

[General Jack Ripper]

Bud_B, on 23 Jan 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

I fear making the same bad moves over and over, and not realizing that I'm standing in the open with a Megaphone and a bright yellow jumpsuit!

 

Fear is your real problem. You must conquer your fear, and learn to trust your instincts. Accept that things will go wrong and when they do, fix them. You will walk into ambushes, you will get caught by artillery, and that sniper will shoot your C.O. in the head. The best thing you can do, is not to obsess over what might happen, but to plan and execute what you can make happen. Remember, dead men don't spot anything. If you want to hide, just kill all of your enemies, then you can hide anywhere you want.

 

Also, try not to wear a reflective orange vest in the middle of an open field while screaming "here I am" into a megaphone. That would be a good start.

 

In all seriousness, there is no tried and true technique for being invisible. The only way you can be completely sure you are not spotted is to hide in your setup zone for the entire battle. As soon as you order your men to move anywhere you just need to accept the fact that you will eventually be spotted and shot at.

[Bud Backer]

Interesting responses to my post, thank you all.

I think a lot of this does come from experience, and I suppose I'd accelerate that knowledge gathering if I sat down and ran a few experiments to see things from "the other side's" viewpoint. As it stands now, it's the school of hard knocks, as I position troops behind hedgerows thinking they're fairly well hidden and finding them being pounded and slaughtered by rifle fire.

The AARs posted here by Bil Hardenberger (among others) showed me a lot about splitting troops, using recon and the like. It all ties together to avoid detection, but the more factors you bring in, the more techniques one has to master.

That's not to say I'm not enjoying myself. But man am I making a lot of truly dumbass mistakes. My pixeltruppen, were they real, might frag me!

[Warts 'n' all]

Unlike some games, in this one making mistakes and getting hammered by the enemy are all part of the fun. And hopefully, part of the learning process.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Warts 'n' all

[Baneman]

... But man am I making a lot of truly dumbass mistakes.

 

This is how most of us learned

We're not better at it, just done it a bit longer.

[Bud Backer]

This is how most of us learned

We're not better at it, just done it a bit longer.

I can imagine! The challenge (in my view) has been separating occasions of luck not being in your side but doing nothing wrong, from that proverbial idiot in the jumpsuit with a megaphone.

[womble]

...troops behind hedgerows thinking they're fairly well hidden and finding them being pounded and slaughtered by rifle fire.

Troops behind Bocage hedgerows do tend to be pretty well hidden and well protected, to boot. If you move Slow the last AS up to the hedge, the enemy will be less likely to see you arrive. That will all be for nought though, if your troops start hammering away with their small arms as soon as they see anything on the other side, since firing weapons are much easier to spot (and the troops getting themselves in a position to fire out can be more easily seen and fired upon, than troops just peeking. So give your hedge-humpers short covered arcs if you know there's not going to be any resistance immediately next to the hedge which will need eradicating. That way, your troops won't fire the moment they spot a target, and you'll be able to keep them hidden and unspotted until you've gathered enough force to be able to win the firefight once it starts. It can be effective to have only some troops up and spotting, with the others kept under Hide orders. This minimises the chances of you being seen (use small teams and ones with vision aids) until you want to open up, but has the disadvantage of probably not allowing you to give area target orders until the next opportunity after you've "unHided" them.

I'm not sure how you're getting slaughtered behind Bocage by rifle fire... I'd hazzard a guess that you're trying to hide behind hedges rather than Bocage; not so useful, as they represent a small "box" hedge or something equivalent, so unless your troops are prone (can be arranged with "Hide" after a Slow move approach) they offer little concealment, and they offer as much cover as you'd expect from a piece of topiary (namely little or none).

[BLSTK]

If I am not mistaken, isn't a topiary a form of...shrubbery? 

 

 

Don't say I didn't warn you.

Edited January 25, 2015 by BLSTK

[Bud Backer]

Troops behind Bocage hedgerows do tend to be pretty well hidden and well protected, to boot. If you move Slow the last AS up to the hedge, the enemy will be less likely to see you arrive. That will all be for nought though, if your troops start hammering away with their small arms as soon as they see anything on the other side, since firing weapons are much easier to spot (and the troops getting themselves in a position to fire out can be more easily seen and fired upon, than troops just peeking. So give your hedge-humpers short covered arcs if you know there's not going to be any resistance immediately next to the hedge which will need eradicating. That way, your troops won't fire the moment they spot a target, and you'll be able to keep them hidden and unspotted until you've gathered enough force to be able to win the firefight once it starts. It can be effective to have only some troops up and spotting, with the others kept under Hide orders. This minimises the chances of you being seen (use small teams and ones with vision aids) until you want to open up, but has the disadvantage of probably not allowing you to give area target orders until the next opportunity after you've "unHided" them.

I'm not sure how you're getting slaughtered behind Bocage by rifle fire... I'd hazzard a guess that you're trying to hide behind hedges rather than Bocage; not so useful, as they represent a small "box" hedge or something equivalent, so unless your troops are prone (can be arranged with "Hide" after a Slow move approach) they offer little concealment, and they offer as much cover as you'd expect from a piece of topiary (namely little or none).

 

 

 

No, definitely not hedges, these are much taller than the men behind them. What is happening is that I do have them fire at designated targets, the return fire is pretty effective; it's just that I thought the hedgerows would provide more cover than they are. Short ranged cover arcs are something I'm using at this point (In fact I can't believe I didn't before! *facepalm*) 

[womble]

No, definitely not hedges, these are much taller than the men behind them. What is happening is that I do have them fire at designated targets, the return fire is pretty effective; it's just that I thought the hedgerows would provide more cover than they are. Short ranged cover arcs are something I'm using at this point (In fact I can't believe I didn't before! *facepalm*)

Then you're up against some high quality troops Generally, I find that trading fire between bocage lines on anything like an even basis is pretty ineffective wrt causing casualties. The pTruppen stay kneeling and the berm/hedge combo gives them fair protection until they're suppressed, and once their heads are down they're unhittable, by and large.

[Bud Backer]

Then you're up against some high quality troops Generally, I find that trading fire between bocage lines on anything like an even basis is pretty ineffective wrt causing casualties. The pTruppen stay kneeling and the berm/hedge combo gives them fair protection until they're suppressed, and once their heads are down they're unhittable, by and large.

I must be doing something wrong. I can't hide to shoot, but when I shoot I get pounded. Have to play more and figure it out. Thanks.

[General Jack Ripper]

Set up some light mortars next to the rest of your troops. Most of the time hedgerow lines are above the minimum 50 meter range for 60mm mortars, and you can quickly clear out opposing forces with direct mortar fire.

[womble]

I must be doing something wrong. I can't hide to shoot, but when I shoot I get pounded. Have to play more and figure it out. Thanks.

A possible generic "ideal" approach for a platoon of American infantry, stepwise:

• Split off assault (A) teams from each squad
• Split off C teams (AT teams from squads with Zooks, and Scout teams from the other squad(s))
• Give the AT teams a 100m circular Armour Target Arc
• Give the A teams a 100m circular Target Arc
• Give the B teams a 200m circular Target Arc
• Give the HQ and Scout teams 50m circular Target Arcs
• Move the HQ and all the A and B teams and the Scout C teams to one AS short of the hedge.
• Keep the AT teams back a couple of AS unless you know there's armour to shoot at; have them Hide to keep their heads down.
• Give the Scout and HQ teams target arcs which will not reach the next hedgerow once they're at the hedgerow you're approaching
• Slow move the Scout and HQ teams into the hedgerow you want to snuggle up to. At their destination waypoint, give them short (10m or less) Target arcs in a segment pointed through the hedge.
• Slow move the A and B teams up into the hedgerow, with an empty AS between all elements once they're in position; leave A teams back if you have to to make sure there's gaps. At their destination waypoint, they should have short target arc segments pointing them through the hedge, and Hide orders; your Scout and HQ teams are your eyes and all those riflemen crowding the hedge are too visible if they kneel up to see and potentially shoot.
• Give it some time for your eyes to see if they can see any enemy. A couple of minutes should do.
• If you see any targets, unHide your rifle sections and remove their Target Arcs. You probably won't be able to set any explicit Target orders because the Hiding elements are unsighted of the far hedgerow. They will engage as they spot, and will spot readily since their platoonmates have seen the target(s). You can also remove the TA of your scout team(s) if you want; they're just riflemen at this stage. Keep the arc on your HQ though. Their job isn't to fire and give their position away so they can be shot at. You might even want to Hide them if that won't drop any teams out of C2, just to keep their heads out of the way of stray rounds.
• If you don't see any targets, unHide your B teams, and optionally your A teams, give them Target Arcs that cover the next hedgerow (but not much further; you don't want them spotting something at extreme effective range on a hill and randomly opening up on it).
• Recon by fire using one of your Scout teams. Area fire somewhere on the opposing hedgeline. Any opposition which spot the Scouts and return fire will likely be spotted by your overwatching B teams and be engaged.
• If that doesn't draw any fire, move one Scout team quickly a short way into the field and have them go to ground (Hide). If you're against the AI at this stage and you've recieved no incoming, you can be fairly sure the far hedge line is clear and the Scouts can start making their Quick way towards the next hedgeline. Against a live opponent, the might have selected short firing arcs for their defenders, so you'll have to keep pushing your Scouts forward (all of them at this stage) until he drops the hammer. You'll probably lose scouts, but at least you won't be having the entire platoon cut down in the open.

The above assumes that you're certain there's nothing opposing your advance into that first hedge. It also assumes that you're facing opposition appropriate to a platoon: a squad or so. If you discover that it's tougher than that, you'll need to break contact and get some help.