mortar effectivity

[mbarbaric]

i set up a trp and 5 mins in the game i was pounding a wood "cca 80 m width, 30 length" with two enemy squads and a gun. it was for two minutes on heavy with 2 81mm mortar barrels and they are still alive and well?

am i just unlucky or what?

[JoMac]

Actually, I don't see a problem as of yet...You might have even KO'ed a couple/few troops for all you know...Remember, even thou it was a Heavy Barrage it's still only 2x Mortars, and only for couple minutes.

Joe

[StieliAlpha]

Well, depends on a lot of things. What was the terrain like? Flat or hilly? Where was the TRP? What was the fire pattern? Where were your squads? Running or

hiding? Etcppblabla...

I have seen useless strikes of a battery of 81's and devastating hits of single 45's.

So, yes, probably bad luck....

[Bulletpoint]

Also, more importantly, artillery is quite weak in these games. Apparently because infantry bunches up more in the game than in real life and so is too vulnerable.

Why BattleFront prefers to give the player access to massive bombardments, only to tone down their effect to preserve balance, rather than to just limit access to artillery, I don't know.

[mbarbaric]

Well, depends on a lot of things. What was the terrain like? Flat or hilly? Where was the TRP? What was the fire pattern? Where were your squads? Running or

hiding? Etcppblabla...

I have seen useless strikes of a battery of 81's and devastating hits of single 45's.

So, yes, probably bad luck....

the terrain was gentle slope facing my mortars, the trp was exactley on the woods it was bombarded and i chose area of around 5ox50m. i don't really care about the infantry but that gun is harrasing me and i thought it was knocked out. to think that the barrage was so thorough and dense that i had stopped it a minute before it was due to end... i thought nothing could survive that. silly me.

[YankeeDog]

Also, more importantly, artillery is quite weak in these games. Apparently because infantry bunches up more in the game than in real life and so is too vulnerable.

Why BattleFront prefers to give the player access to massive bombardments, only to tone down their effect to preserve balance, rather than to just limit access to artillery, I don't know.

Eh? lethality of HE is slightly toned down to account for the fact that infantry in CMx2 don't more widely disperse when under artillery fire as they would often do IRL in order to reduce the chance of multiple men being taken out by a single shell. The goal of adjustment is to make HE roughly as lethal as it would be IRL.

You also need to revise your idea of "massive bombardments." In terms of # of shells fired, there's probably a lot less artillery fired in most CM scenarios than were used in similar situations IRL. In WWII, a lot of mortar and artillery shells were fired per casualty caused.

Worth noting that many experienced players (myself included) consider artillery to be somewhat more effective in the game than IRL. IMHO, this is largely due to the player's "God" perspective, which makes it easier in CM to call in artillery quickly and accurately than it would normally be IRL. This is a difficult thing to compensate for and I myself don't have a good solution to this issue.

Regardless, it does sound like the OP's situation was a bit of bad luck. As noted, a lot depends details like available cover, unit quality, whether or not the units are dug in or not, etc. But IME, a 2-tube, 2-minute, heavy 81mm concentration will pretty seriously saturate an 80m x 30m target area. On average, I'd expect enemy units in the target zone to be at least heavily suppressed, if not WIA/KIA.

But it is also a game of luck; as the described result also doesn't strike me as impossible as a "this happened one time" result.

[womble]

An 80 x 30 patch is just about the area I'd expect to suck up most of the rounds of a point mission, if it was aligned "just right". Your 25m radius circle about the centre of the woods will cause quite a few of the rounds would be landing well outside the woods themselves (some of them outside the circle).

Even with treebursts, once the target units get suppressed to "Cowering", they get the maximum benefit out of the "microterrain" abstractions. Once the few team members who aren't getting any microterrain "terrain saves" are hit and wounded, you still have the ones who managed to find a putative log to crawl under and will have to be very unlucky to get geeked (in the right terrain tile type).

Depending on quite how you're assessing the effect of the strike, you might be underestimating it... Or it might be that you're seeing all the survivors (as opposed to there being others that you can't see because of FoW)... Worth noting that they're probably pretty shaky and might well run off if harrassed with MG fire. Depends on soft factors, of course. If you'd called a point mission of that weight on the gun's location, it would almost certainly have been nailed.

[MikeyD]

Its funny when you're talking about your artillery its ineffective, but when you're talking about their artillery... well, I seem to always lost most of my squad when a single mortar round drops on top of them.

[A Canadian Cat]

Depending on quite how you're assessing the effect of the strike, you might be underestimating it...

I think this might be a big factor. One of the amazing things about this game is that you don't get perfect knowledge of what effect your actions have on your opponent.

Luck and FOW aside I would not have expected to eliminate a force like that in the woods with a barrage you describe. Sure I would expect casualties but not elimination. In fact I pretty much never *expect* elimination of the enemy by artillery.

If you'd called a point mission of that weight on the gun's location, it would almost certainly have been nailed.

My experience is if you want a gun eliminated by the use of artillery you have to target the gun itself. So, I would use a point target on the gun or a very tight circle on the gun's location. Then I would never assume that the gun was eliminated - I would verify its status after the smoke cleared. I have used point targets to eliminate guns before but many times they are still there afterwards - often with a few less crew but still functioning.

Verify and repeat the call if the gun is still there.

[SeinfeldRules]

I've always had the most success using my artillery and mortars as a suppressive weapon instead of a destructive weapon. Why wait 6 minutes for a fire mission on a point target that lasts only 2 minutes, with an effect that disappears as soon as the mission ends, when I can fire the same number of rounds at a slower rate for much longer (10+ minutes), and achieve a relatively strong suppressive effect over the entirety of that period. I much rather call a 10 minute long fire mission on a village or wood and spend those 10 minutes maneuvering closer while rounds land in a slow but stead drizzle that keeps heads down and limits movement.

[Michael Emrys]

I much rather call a 10 minute long fire mission on a village or wood and spend those 10 minutes maneuvering closer while rounds land in a slow but stead drizzle that keeps heads down and limits movement.

Good point. I may try that sometime.

Michael

[Badger73]

Its funny when you're talking about your artillery its ineffective, but when you're talking about their artillery... <snipped>

So true that in Real Life as well. Vietnam war is rampant with anecdotes of US troops cursing vehemently at the havoc wrought by VC and NVA mortars. Followed by different curses at US arty for having no worth at all. Go figure . . .

[mbarbaric]

i guess i have to describe better what happened there...

when i was assessing the map i noted that patch of wood on the flank of my main objective (which is the hill above it) and i was pretty sure it is going to be populated with nazis so i set up trp there instead of putting it on the main obj itself.

once the game started andi approached with my scouts suddenly the gun started shooting from the woods. i was so delighted i judged well the nazis i set up the barrage on whole wood as i was sure there were some troops as well.

my mistake was that once i have realised where nazis will set up the defense i didn't examine closely the woods as i would see the perfect position on the ridge overlooking what my opponent would presume it would be my main approach. i guess that is first lesson i have learned in my first h2h game.

anyway, as i approached the woods (gun shooting at my troops in the rear) i came upon two squads/teams that ran away as soon as my scout team started shooting so they had to be in bad shape. i only hope the gun crew isn't any better and few shots will make them run.

the problem is i still need to reach it and i can't go directly the shortest rute as it would kill anyone approaching. i'll have to go around it but to do that i have to clear the hill above it and before that happens, he can sniper down the valley.

i guess i am just frustrated i did relatively good observation in the start and ****ed it up with poor troop manouver.

i have little experience setting up mortar missions, so how do you actually set up an effective harass mission?

[mbarbaric]

sorry for double post, can't find edit button :S is there any good tutorial (written or filmed) on using the mortar missions in CM you are aware of?

[JoMac]

Try this site out for all your Tactical Needs...

http://battledrill.blogspot.com/2013/08/combat-mission-tactical-problems-cmtp.html

[A Canadian Cat]

i guess i am just frustrated i did relatively good observation in the start and ****ed it up with poor troop manouver.

Oh, we understand we have all done that kind of thing. I sure have.

i have little experience setting up mortar missions, so how do you actually set up an effective harass mission?

It is not an exact science but here is a starting point: select the area target for the barrage then select harass or light (for a two tube barrage I suggest light for four you can do harass) then choose a length and here is where I have learned to choose maximum. That way I can cancel it when I do not need it any more. In this case the barrage will go for as long as the rounds last, which will hopefully be longer than I need to get my troops into position. Then I cancel it - be careful - canceling is not instantaneous and rounds in the air and some that are about to be fired will still be on their way.

I choose to go with maximum duration for this kind of thing because it is so difficult to predict how long Long, or Medium are since it varies on the artillery piece and the number of tubes (I think).

[womble]

Light/Harrass Maximum missions, with reduced numbers of tubes firing, perhaps, depending on the asset involved, are excellent for improving the response time of your heavy support. Especially when you combine a preplanned mission with TRPs. For example, you can have the arty start pounding the front edge of a town at 10 minutes, even if no FO would have gotten into sight of the town, then lift the barrage to further back in the town where you have a TRP for another 10 minutes, and once you've taken the high ground, and the FO can see the enemy rear areas (round the dreadful pall of smoke and dust hanging over the town), shift the remainder of the mission to interdict any arriving reinforcements. If any hard, stationary targets need attention and the FO can get eyes-on, that's a bonus. A full 4-gun 150mm module can give you up to about 50mins of heavy stuff only 8 minutes or less away, if you set it to Light, and only fire half the tubes.

[mbarbaric]

Light/Harrass Maximum missions, with reduced numbers of tubes firing, perhaps, depending on the asset involved, are excellent for improving the response time of your heavy support. Especially when you combine a preplanned mission with TRPs. For example, you can have the arty start pounding the front edge of a town at 10 minutes, even if no FO would have gotten into sight of the town, then lift the barrage to further back in the town where you have a TRP for another 10 minutes, and once you've taken the high ground, and the FO can see the enemy rear areas (round the dreadful pall of smoke and dust hanging over the town), shift the remainder of the mission to interdict any arriving reinforcements. If any hard, stationary targets need attention and the FO can get eyes-on, that's a bonus. A full 4-gun 150mm module can give you up to about 50mins of heavy stuff only 8 minutes or less away, if you set it to Light, and only fire half the tubes.

awesome mate, great info!

[Erwin]

Normally, I would be very happy to only fire one tube in many situations. However, I generally fire all tubes of a battery regardless since I recall reading that they didn't order a number of tubes, just number of rounds.

Anyone know what was actually done in RL?

[Sailor Malan2]

Its funny when you're talking about your artillery its ineffective, but when you're talking about their artillery... well, I seem to always lost most of my squad when a single mortar round drops on top of them.

Surely they still teach grammar where you come from? To bombard is one of those irregular verbs: I scatter rounds ineffectually, you kill with a spotting round, he is being investigated by BF for hacking the code

With apologies to Yes Mininster:) (the original was ' I give confidential press briefings; you leak; he's being charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.')

[Michael Emrys]

(the original was ' I give confidential press briefings; you leak; he's being charged under section 2A of the Official Secrets Act.')

My own version goes: I am resolute; you are stubborn; he is pig-headed.

Michael

[c3k]

Another thing: guns get a bonus for being in their setup location. It represents better camouflage and being dug in. (At least, I think that's how it works.)

So, that gun is a tough target to hit and kill with artillery.

Suppression with a drizzle, as mentioned above. That'll keep their heads down and their morale poor.

To cover your advance...SMOKE.

[YankeeDog]

Another thing: guns get a bonus for being in their setup location. It represents better camouflage and being dug in. (At least, I think that's how it works.)SMOKE.

I'm not 100% confident of this, but I'm pretty sure the gun "setup bonus" provides a concealment bonus, but no cover bonus. To provide additional cover you need to use foxholes, trenches, or sandbag walls.

Note that foxholes & trenches only provide cover to the crew; sandbags are the only fortification type that actually provide additional protection to the gun itself. However, guns are quite resistant to light & medium mortar fire in the game, so it's very rare to see a gun killed by this type of ordnance; mortar fire usually disables a gun by routing or incapacitating all of the crew, rather than destroying the gun itself.

Best protection for a gun is terrain. For example, guns in a slight depression, shallow enough that the gun can still see and fire out, but deep enough to provide the gun and crew some defilade, can be extremely difficult to knock out.

[c3k]

I could've sworn a saw a "+2 Emplaced" chit floating around here somewhere...