Soviet SMGs in Forrest and other Non Open Terrain

[db_zero]

Now that we've had a chance to play RT against the AI and h2h, whats the overall feeling. Before the release one of the beta testers mentioned the very deadly nature of smg equipped smg team while the master Bill H offered to go h2h and give a different perspective.

I find them quite deadly, but not omnipotent even in forests. However many times I was in a bad situation many of the times already losing so that may have had some influence.

Oddly enough I find the smg equipped paras in Market Garden to be far, far more deadly than the Soviet smg units. I don't know if its the higher motivation, training and experience of the British paras that is the difference. I would guess the Russian smgs are superior to the stens used by the British.

Perhaps once I play more RT my opinion will change.

[A Canadian Cat]

I find the Soviet SMG squads to be brutal. I have an urban environment battle going right now and even though I am gaining the upper hand (due to now having HE trowing superiority) earlier in the game they chewed up half my force. I also wisely avoided getting into a part of town where there are a lot of close quarters and small streets but instead kept to the other end of town that had several open squares and park areas. So, yeah I find the Soviet SMG squads tough to fight against unless you can engage them further away or throw explody stuff at them while remaining buttoned.

[Nidan1]

I find the Soviet SMG squads to be brutal. I have an urban environment battle going right now and even though I am gaining the upper hand (due to now having HE trowing superiority) earlier in the game they chewed up half my force. I also wisely avoided getting into a part of town where there are a lot of close quarters and small streets but instead kept to the other end of town that had several open squares and park areas. So, yeah I find the Soviet SMG squads tough to fight against unless you can engage them further away or throw explody stuff at them while remaining buttoned.

Hmmmmmmmm.

[db_zero]

Haven't has any Stalingrad like battles yet. I'm sure once I do I'll come to appreciate the Russian SMG armed troops more.

[John Kettler]

Nidan1,

I don't recall whether I brought this to your attention before, but the first part of your sig, on duty, is a precept from Imperial Rescript to Soldiers and Sailors, Emperor Meiji, 1882.

Believe you may find the two links of interest. The first is an overview of the Rescript. The second is a translation of parts of the Rescript, revealing a wealth of information I'd not seen before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Rescript_to_Soldiers_and_Sailors

The Bucknell piece below has a slightly different translation. I prefer, and what I've seen quoted many times, is the quote as rendered in your sig.

http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/jamesorr/ImpResSoldSailors1882web.htm

How about those Soviet (I prefer Russian) SMGs?!

Some great HD footage of a PPSh 41 in single shot, short burst and extended burst.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Nidan1]

John, you brought that to my attention a couple of years back if I am not mistaken. Thanks again.

The Meiji Period was a tumultuous time in Japan. The Satsuma Rebellion had recently taken place, an event where the old Samurai attempted to halt the modernization of Japan, and were eventually defeated by the Western Trained Army. The Tom Cruise movie "The Last Samurai" is loosely based on this period.

A lot of the important precepts in this document were sayings and ways of behavior explained in the Code of Bushido, that all Samurai should follow.

[John Kettler]

Nidan1,

Given my memory, you may well be right. I have to say, though, that this Satsuma Rebellion thing has me worried. Any time tangerines rise up and seek to throw off the yoke of (blood orange) oppression, it's wise to ascertain the causes!

And since I'm on a bit of a sig comment roll, you might like this--which I may also have said something to you about. How I miss my once excellent memory! Hint to the rest of you: Multiple car accidents, whether or not your fault (mine weren't) are NOT a good path to having great memory.

Regards,

John Kettler

[sburke]

John, you brought that to my attention a couple of years back if I am not mistaken. Thanks again.

The Meiji Period was a tumultuous time in Japan. The Satsuma Rebellion had recently taken place, an event where the old Samurai attempted to halt the modernization of Japan, and were eventually defeated by the Western Trained Army. The Tom Cruise movie "The Last Samurai" is loosely based on this period.

A lot of the important precepts in this document were sayings and ways of behavior explained in the Code of Bushido, that all Samurai should follow.

Local Public Television here used to run the Japanese Taiga dramas with subtitles - year long historical dramas that usually focus on samurai in various periods. I was in Kyoto shortly after Shinsengumi was aired and it covered quite a bit of the developments in Kyoto in the period leading up to the Meiji restoration. There was also dramas on Atsuhime and Sakamoto Ryoma covering this period. The dramas tend to be a real mix. The first I saw was Toshiie to Matsu - story of the Maeda clan in the warring states era and I got hooked. KQED stopped running them right as Ryomaden started, but I was in Tosa and got to see some of the historical locations. They were getting more "pop" oriented. Literally with pop stars playing leading roles in Shinsengumi and this guy playineg Uesugi Kenshin in Furin Kazan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gackt bummer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga_drama

[ng cavscout]

Nidan1's German SMG'S are doing quite a number on my defenders of the workers paradise. We are battling it out on a dark wooded hill late at night and I am not seeing any problems with the performance of the MP40.

[Apocal]

Nidan1's German SMG'S are doing quite a number on my defenders of the workers paradise. We are battling it out on a dark wooded hill late at night and I am not seeing any problems with the performance of the MP40.

It's not the tech specs of the weapons that matter much. As long as it has the right mix of broad characteristics, the nitty-gritty details are just deck-chairs on the Titanic. What's nasty is the specific density of those weapons within the squads and platoons; it's asking much of any infantry force to advance into effective range of 25+ automatic weapons.

[Melchior]

Despite having played CM for years I sometimes wonder.

Does the game model the poor penetration and muzzle energy of SMGs in some way? By abstraction or some such? I have a hunch that SMG squads are at a greater disadvantage against guys in buildings or behind several layers of foliage. I'm not entirely sure though.

[A Canadian Cat]

Hmmmmmmmm.

LOL - Do you disagree that my plan is working out for me?

Again last turn though as a squad of mine moved between two buildings they were all cut down by SMG fire from across the street. I think the covering forces gave some hurt back but oh man a whole squad down in one alley in one minute - this is still far from over.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Despite having played CM for years I sometimes wonder.

Does the game model the poor penetration and muzzle energy of SMGs in some way? By abstraction or some such? I have a hunch that SMG squads are at a greater disadvantage against guys in buildings or behind several layers of foliage. I'm not entirely sure though.

I don't know for sure but I think so. I know Charles has said in the past that the penetrative properties of various small arms are modeled, although he was talking about CMSF at the time I assume that would extend to all the CMx2 games.

[Nidan1]

Local Public Television here used to run the Japanese Taiga dramas with subtitles - year long historical dramas that usually focus on samurai in various periods. I was in Kyoto shortly after Shinsengumi was aired and it covered quite a bit of the developments in Kyoto in the period leading up to the Meiji restoration. There was also dramas on Atsuhime and Sakamoto Ryoma covering this period. The dramas tend to be a real mix. The first I saw was Toshiie to Matsu - story of the Maeda clan in the warring states era and I got hooked. KQED stopped running them right as Ryomaden started, but I was in Tosa and got to see some of the historical locations. They were getting more "pop" oriented. Literally with pop stars playing leading roles in Shinsengumi and this guy playineg Uesugi Kenshin in Furin Kazan...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gackt bummer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiga_drama

The Japanese are quite enamored with their early historical periods. They are, as a people, bound to tradition and reverance of people and events of their past.

As a nearly homogeneous population, it is easier for them to relate to their common history, and therefore have a keen understanding of their past and their current place in the world. Of course the early 20th Century was not kind to the Japanese, mostly their own fault IMO. However it does not surprise me that they would create such an extensive and long running historical drama series.

[Nidan1]

LOL - Do you disagree that my plan is working out for me?

Again last turn though as a squad of mine moved between two buildings they were all cut down by SMG fire from across the street. I think the covering forces gave some hurt back but oh man a whole squad down in one alley in one minute - this is still far from over.

City scapes once again prove deadly for armored vehicles. I agree, the tide is turning in your favor, my friend.

[slysniper]

I don't know for sure but I think so. I know Charles has said in the past that the penetrative properties of various small arms are modeled, although he was talking about CMSF at the time I assume that would extend to all the CMx2 games.

Oh, its modelled, I guess the question is, does it match reality well.

The smg's are limited as to penetration. Just proved that to myself recently by letting halftracks pull up to them and take them on. No penetrations.

Where as, In a little battle I created I have a 50 cal MG that just loves to tear through buildings and anyone that might be inside them.

So that is the two extremes. but the rest do seem to fall in between and react to terrain as to what can and cannot penetrate certain objects.

There was tweeks along the way also from BF, because we all recall how building were hardly any cover at all when CMBN first game out, Now rifles still penetrate some buildings. but not to the extent they once did.

In other words, sheds still are not real cover

[womble]

SMGs certainly don't do very well against targets in hard cover like a decent modular building. You want a full power rifle cartridge to get through those; SMGs just ricochet if they don't hit an opening.

[wolf66]

I find the deadliness of the russian infantry in the woods magnified by the reluctance of the german troops to throw their damn grenades ...... they die without throwing even one nade with the enemy close, but have readily 10 in their posession - frustrating as hell - and they don't throw them most of the time even if given an area fire order close by ...

[WallysWorld]

In a game I'm playing now, my German squads are being hammered by the Soviet SMG squads in the forest. My squads manage to get off a few shots at the start and maybe take one or two Soviet soldiers out before I lose about 75% of the squad with just a couple of SMG bursts. This happens even when my squad is waiting in ambush armed with a couple of MG 42's.

[Andrew H.]

Oh, its modelled, I guess the question is, does it match reality well.

The smg's are limited as to penetration. Just proved that to myself recently by letting halftracks pull up to them and take them on. No penetrations.

I've had this happen in game and it's a *huge* difference: while even close range rifle fire will penetrate a HT if close enough, I had hundreds of SMG rounds bounce of my HTs with no damage. It helped that I was on a rise above the SMG troops so there were no ricochets into the HT.

In a game I'm playing now, my German squads are being hammered by the Soviet SMG squads in the forest. My squads manage to get off a few shots at the start and maybe take one or two Soviet soldiers out before I lose about 75% of the squad with just a couple of SMG bursts. This happens even when my squad is waiting in ambush armed with a couple of MG 42's.

I think the best solution in that kind of situation is just to area fire ahead of you into the woods with the LMGs. They *will* penetrate farther than you can see; but it takes a certain amount of willpower to keep firing blindly. A certain amount of luck helps, too. But when the alternative is losing 75% of a squad, almost anything is preferable.

[John Kettler]

Nidan1,

I find it hard to comment on someone's sig without providing the underlying thought, in this case, a link.

sburke,

Thank you for some Japanese cultural information of which I was wholly unaware.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

...I lose about 75% of the squad with just a couple of SMG bursts...

If you split your squads up, this will happen less often. You will also (if you split evenly, rather than "Assault/Fire") be able to assign two area fire "lanes" to suppress the advancing Russkies beyond sight.

[Melchior]

I've found probing fires are paramount to defeating Russian SMG squads. Preferably delivered from cover or long range. I typically don't split my squads though, since losing 4 men whether or not they're in a team pretty much ruins a Panzergrenadier squad and I don't like to split my firepower. If I think im in for a protracted town fight, I usually dismount the halftrack crews and use them as small scout teams.

[Baneman]

... I typically don't split my squads though, since losing 4 men whether or not they're in a team pretty much ruins a Panzergrenadier squad and I don't like to split my firepower...

I always split mine - reason being that if the 2 teams are in non-adjacent AS's, it splits the enemy's firepower.

But everyone plays differently.

[womble]

I typically don't split my squads though, since losing 4 men whether or not they're in a team pretty much ruins a Panzergrenadier squad and I don't like to split my firepower.

The way you put that sounds like you're operating under, possibly subconscious, misapprehensions.

For the sake of argument, I'm (now ) referring to an 8 man PzGr squad, with 2 MG42s and 1 (maybe 2) MP40s. Using "Split Squad", this squad splits into two teams of 4, each with an MG42, one with an MP40 as well and perhaps the other, too.

The primary point of splitting your squads in the context of dealing with SMG-heavy Russian troops is so that you don't lose 4 men quickly/in an instant. When they're unsplit, the teams have to be adjacent, they provide a larger target, giving the individuals with SMGs more opportunity to kill them. Separated, the Russkies will most likely engage one or t'other of the teams, and overshoots from one burst will be less likely to hit members of the other team. Secondary to this is that separated teams will generally have more opportunity to find cover for the whole element, reducing their vulnerability across the board.

Splitting your teams up doesn't have to split your fire power (unless you split them up too far). You can still have them aim at the same target. Indeed, firing into the same AS from different angles reduces the cover available to the target, increasing the effect of your fire. It does, however, allow you to choose to split your fire power to avoid overkill. And yes, Dorothy, there is such a thing as overkill. In close terrain, the ranges for your probing fire will probably have each of the MG42s throwing out enough lead to crimp the style of any skulking Commies, so having the two firing at the same place is wasting that second MG42 entirely, when they could be suppressing another squad they can't see. Sometimes that won't be true, so you give the two teams the same target orders. Choice; isn't that supposed to be a Good Thing ? And in the worst case where a team separated from its squad mates can't fire at the same target, you can always move them up adjacent to the other team (where they would be if you'd not split them) if that lets them get lead on the target, and if it doesn't, they wouldn't have been able to see it anyway. So you can toddle them off to find a place they can get at the target from, something that you couldn't do if you hadn't split them.

Squads do not have firepower. Individual troopers do.