RT Anti-Tank Guns

[Jack Ration]

In previous iterations of CM, the general consensus seemed to be that anti-tank guns were spotted too easily, and that was my observation.

Any comment on spotting of ATG in RT?

[Vanir Ausf B]

How easy is too easy? In my opinion, no, they are not spotted too easily.

[Oddball_E8]

They are certainly not easy to spot from a distance.

I think they might have increased the difficulty for spotting an AT gun, but that is also coupled with the fact that the distances are alot greater in CMRT than they were in CMBN.

In the mission I'm currently playing, I have lost three out of six panzer IV's to AT-guns and only spotted two of them clearly (and those went back to being unspotted pretty fast) and the others are either not spotted at all or simply a sound contact marker.

All my tanks were unbuttoned and they seem to panic alot faster than they used to because the fire is coming from unseen enemies.

[zmoney]

I think they are much harder to spot even after firing. A Russian 57mm fired four or five rounds knocking out two tanks from 380m before being spotted and knocked out.

[Vanir Ausf B]

They are, due to a quirk in how the game engine works. The dust cloud kicked up by AT guns firing obscures them, but enemy units can't see the dust cloud unless they spot the AT gun.

[Oddball_E8]

They are, due to a quirk in how the game engine works. The dust cloud kicked up by AT guns firing obscures them, but enemy units can't see the dust cloud unless they spot the AT gun.

So what would in real life aid spotting is actually making spotting harder in the game?

That's a little depressing :/

[Fizou]

Im sure the fiering is taken into account in some way when it comes to spotting, under the hood (as FOW is maintained by not showing the smoke. In earlier iterations of CMSF I remember flying around the map to see where dust was kicked up by ATGMs).

[Vanir Ausf B]

It was tweaked a bit in some way for CMRT, but there is basically no way to completely fix it without making dust subject to spotting checks.

[Combatintman]

I think they are bloody hard to spot - I had to close to practically within bayonet range to spot Russian AT guns in one of the German Campaign missions. Second time out, even when I knew where they were, it took ages to locate them.

[Tank Hunter]

This one is tricky to simulate correctly. There are three things that are important for AT gun spotting.

- Muzzle Flash

- Smoke/Dust

- Sound

Someone must see muzzle flash which means someone has to observe that area when the AT gun shoots. Do you have to see flash directly? No, there is Peripheral vision which enables us to react on movement and events outside our direct vision. How do you simulate that? Humans only focus on 3% of our field of view.

Smoke/Dust is both depending on weapon/ammunition and the ground. Both will remain hovering close to the gun thus enabling spotting even if you did not see the flash.

And there is also the sound, if there is no firefight around then an AT gun direction will easily be determined, if you have heavy firefight with artillery tanks etc then an AT gun sound might just go "unnoticed".

For this to work BF would have to make smoke/flash observable or code each gun individually to simulate these factors when in combat.

Oh, let's not forget camouflage, most of these AT guns were camouflaged in combat. This was often made so that the camouflage would counter dust/flash/smoke as much as possible.

[zmoney]

Even though my tanks were ko'ed I was happy that I wasn't able to spot the gun straight away. Seemed more realistic.

[Lee_Vincent]

It is definitely harder in CMRT. In a recent scenario I had a single Pak40 75mm kill 6 Russian tanks from the battlefield flank. It was eventually killed but did the job.

Same scenario, there was a Russian 76mm gun at long range that kept a big chunk of my armor pinned down, I eventually had to bring up a KT that absorbed about 6 hits before it spotted and killed the 76mm.

[Frankster65]

I too have noticed that AT guns are much harder to spot and actually have the element of surprise on their side again. I like it. It seems to work, it seems more real now as to what I was reading with respect to these guns used in battle. They are definitely more deadly because of this.

[db_zero]

So it wasn't just a fluke in my h2h game and my 45mm AT guns. I definitely like the change and can't wait till it makes its way into Normandy, Italy and Holland.

This is really going to change things. I often removed AT guns from my force selection in h2h quick battles. Now they may become something to bring along. Should really help the poor infantry. I'm sure my zook, faust and shreick mules will be happy. They won't be sent on suicide missions as much.

[A co]

I haven't used them yet, but I bet the 45mm guns are pretty effective and hard to spot on these big maps. Dangerous to anything but the big cats, I expect. Small, cheap and numerous.

[GhostRider3/3]

I did a QB and had 4 75mm Pak/40 AT guns and 2 Panthers.. vs 24 T-34/76 and I think 8 T34/85's. End result was astonishing.. Although the Russians had thru hilly terrain, as German Defender, the Russians never really got a shot at any AT guns.. however they did spot the cats and attack them..minimal damage... range was about 1200-1500m. all but 4 Tanks were destroyed of the Russians. They were all buttoned up as I remember... but the AT guns were having a hayday. Anyways in many reads AT/guns were a tankers worst nightmare. If I have Artillery I usually pepper the areas where I think they may be hiding.. sometimes you get lucky.

[db_zero]

From what I've seen 45mms are deadly against the Rodney Danderfields of the battlefield the MarkIV. That poor tank that can't get a break and gets no respect.

I've also seen 45mms incinerate German armored cars which seem to have a tendency to make nice explosions when hit. Interestingly enough I've also seen them penetrate halftracks loaded with infantry, kill a few of the occupants and the tracks continue on their merry way.

Has a couple of Panthers roll by a 45mm in the woods without spotting it. The 45mm got nice close range side shots and penetrated the lower side hull and side turret of 2 tanks, but the Panthers turned around and eventually MG the crew, but not before it got off another shot hitting the wheel of the Panther. Not sure what to make of that.

[c3k]

Panther had internal space. Against small penetrations that means survivability. I would hazard that there is either damage or some casualty effect.

[Alan8325]

I'm playing the German campaign right now and those zis-2 57mm AT guns are frickin lasers. Always seem to get first round hits on my tanks, even when they are moving.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

No... I don’t think they are spotted too easily.. in RT.

All the best,

Kip.

[c2yeung]

I find AT guns difficult to spot especially from afar. They are lethal. Usually, the time they are spotted is when your tank either got destroyed or shot at a few times and damaged. On a one tank/one AT gun duel, AT gun wins most of the time. I am prepared to trade anytime a loss of 1 AT gun for 1 enemy tank destroyed. More than 1 tank destroyed would be bonus for me.

[MikeyD]

My joke is AT guns are too easy to spot if you're manning them, too hard to spot if they're shooting at you.

[Scrummage]

In the myth of invincibility scenarion German AT guns should be able to wreck havoc on Soviet armour. One of my 75mm AT guns took out 4 or 5 tanks from a relatively open position (right side of the map, shrubbery besides the woods). Ended up having to abandon the gun because ammunition ran out. Combat range should have been around 900-1000meters

[Childress]

There was dissatisfaction expressed in the past over the perceived uselessness of AT guns. Namely on grounds of lethargic barrel rotation, arduous redeployment and ease of spotting. Have they over-corrected in 3.0?

[womble]

There was dissatisfaction expressed in the past over the perceived uselessness of AT guns.

Perceived. There's the rub. I've had ATGs eviscerate enemy attacks, in both vsAI and HvH scenarios prior to RT. Nothing I've heard reported in this thread exceeds the effectiveness of ATGs in CMBN as I've seen it. Which is no surprise.

Namely on grounds of lethargic barrel rotation, arduous redeployment and ease of spotting. Have they over-corrected in 3.0?

Those things were never critical to the effectiveness of ATGs.