Urban fighting force composition

[Scrummage]

As i am about to enter a couple of street fighting games (No Ryu or M. Bison here but Zangief might just be a Russian private) i was thinking about what i should do differently in my force selection. As i am playing the Soviets i know my troops have next to zero AT capabilities, armour is likely to guard long streets and lanes and getting the beat in tigers and panthers head on is unlikely.

To what an extent should i use sniper squads, extra MG teams and AT (rifle) teams? Do the soviet SMG companies pay off or are the normal rifle squads just fine, they already have a high amount of SMG's.

Finally, is it wise to use tank destroyers and assault guns in urban fighting? An SU-76 is dirt cheap and has above average spotting. In urban fighting it could just sit back and pound buildings.

[Scrummage]

Oh extra. Mortars or heavy artillery?

[purpheart23]

I have had bad experiences with Assault guns in close quarters battle even with other armor. The unfortunate necessity to turn the whole vehicle makes them next to useless in city fighting unless you are just going to place them at the end of a street and have them gaurd it, get something with a turret.

[db_zero]

Whats the HE load of the SU76? Buildings become death traps for infantry when cannons are used against them. Just make sure you use infantry to screen and protect armored vechicles.

I have a h2h game going and if it wasn't for my assault guns and 1 tank I would have a near impossible task dislodging the Paras from their urban defensive positions.

I've also used tanks to great effect in another h2h urban battle.

Mortars I find useful too. Under 120mm may not be highly effective on infantry in strong buildings, but if you're patient they are murderous if used in direct fire mode on infantry scurrying in the open which often happens in urban battles when moving to new positions.

[db_zero]

I have had bad experiences with Assault guns in close quarters battle even with other armor. The unfortunate necessity to turn the whole vehicle makes them next to useless in city fighting unless you are just going to place them at the end of a street and have them gaurd it, get something with a turret.

Everytime I got too aggressive with these I quickly lost them. Do not get into a close quarter battle with AGs or even tanks.

Be patient let your opponent expose areas he is willing to contest and snipe at long range.

[Baneman]

The Russian Tank-Hunter Teams DO have the RPG43 HEAT grenades ( just the icon is missing ).

In city fighting, you may well be able to get them close enough and/or have them in nice ambush houses

[db_zero]

My general rule is in open terrain tanks clear way and screen for the infantry. In built up areas the infantry clears way and screens the tanks.

Not a 100% hard rule as there are times when you can break the rules. I once broke the rules using a King Tiger and sure enough it was immediately hit by a PIAT round that exploded harmlessly off its front hull. Had it been one of my Stugs it would have more than likely been cooked.

In any even I made sure the KT beat a hasty retreat. No need to press my luck.

[db_zero]

The Russian AT rifles if firing down from a higher elevation may do some damage to German tanks if the hit the thinner top armor. If you can get shots from a higher elevation from the rear quadrant even better.

Can you buy AT mines...

[Scrummage]

At mines would surely be a big advantage in a defensive battle. On the attack or in a meeting engagement that isn't an option.

[ZPB II]

SMG infantry and heavy calibre assault guns. SU-122/SU-152/ISU-152. Make sure you have some T-34/85s for anti-tank engagements though. IS-2s also work well.

Flamethrowing OT-34s are great for clearing buildings.

SU-76s are very vulnerable in urban environments due to the open top. The crew will likely end up shot from someone up high in a vantage point.

[db_zero]

At mines would surely be a big advantage in a defensive battle. On the attack or in a meeting engagement that isn't an option.

Smoke. Anything cheap and produces smokescreens will be valuable.

[Michael Emrys]

I'd tend to go with SMG infantry as well. But have some way to load them up with extra ammo at the start as they tend to go through theirs at a prodigious rate. Maybe have lots of SMG infantry so that when one platoon has shot their bolt you can bring up a fresh platoon to take the point. Rotating squads/teams in and out of the front line also works.

+1 on the smoke. You can save yourself casualties, unwelcome surprises, and a lot of grief by isolating one small part of the battlefield at a time to attack. Once you have cleared that building or block, go on to the next one. The AI is absolutely diabolical about identifying some street you are going to have to use or cross and placing an HMG and a squad or two to cover it.

Michael

[Pewpewchewchew]

On the offense, I'd would go heavy on engineers and demo charge armed "breach teams". Sadly IMO, the way close assaults are done are just terrible. The best way I've seem a building taken is to just use suppressive fire on anything you see and demo charges to smoke out buildings with few windows.

[Andrew H.]

1. In urban fighting, SMG squads are tremendously effective. Buy as many as you can and don't waste your time with any rifle squads.

2. OT-34! OT-34! OT-34!

Is this a scenario where you will have the opportunity to attack from a protected flank, or is it going to be more of a head-to-head direct slogfest?

In general, I've become a big fan of the SU-76's. They cost about half what a tank does (120 pts), and have an okay ammo loadout (35 HE rounds) and good ROF. But you have to use them as artillery, not armor - keep them back and shoot up infantry, preferably in pairs. (And in a pinch, they do have an emergency anti-armor ability).

But you would only want to use them in an urban setting if you could keep them at a safe standoff distance, preferably from a flank outside the city.

3. T-34/76s. This may be covered by OT-34/76s - but I always like to have some of these around because they carry 70(!) HE rounds. A T-34/85 carries about 40; an ISU-152 has about 15; and an IS-2 has maybe 18 (and only 10 AP rounds).

[Freyberg]

SU76s also have a couple of precious rounds of smoke each, which Soviet tanks don't have. Heavy artillery and TRPs are also quite valuable in urban environments.

[Vanir Ausf B]

3. T-34/76s. This may be covered by OT-34/76s - but I always like to have some of these around because they carry 70(!) HE rounds.

IIRC, they also carry canister rounds.

[Michael Emrys]

IIRC, they also carry canister rounds.

Yep. Don't know how good those are against units in buildings, but in the open they can do a pretty fair job.

Michael

[LarsS]

On the offense, I'd would go heavy on engineers and demo charge armed "breach teams". Sadly IMO, the way close assaults are done are just terrible. The best way I've seem a building taken is to just use suppressive fire on anything you see and demo charges to smoke out buildings with few windows.

I also find breach teams very useful in urban terrain. They can open new, covered approaches to the enemy by blasting inconvenient house walls, letting you move through the city blocks instead of having to expose your units in the streets. They also double as tank hunters, since their charges can take out/immobilize enemy armor.

[womble]

Breach teams and smoke are both invaluable ways of changing the battlefield to favour your actions and hinder your opponent's.

[ScoutPL]

Just a pet peeve...

Most of what the folks here are advocating reflect units that are extremely costly in Rarity points. For a reason. If you and your opponent agree to leave rarity unrestricted and cherry pick at will, you will have a battle of uber weapons that really has nothing to do with actual conditions on the battlefield.

For a more realistic, demanding approach (if that is desired), keep the rarity points low and fight your urban fights with lots of infantry and very few vehicles and specialized weapons. Which is the way they were fought historically. An added benefit is it forces you to get better at fire and maneuver rather than building demolition.

[A Canadian Cat]

I second (or is it third of fourth now) advocating using SMG platoons. I just finished Frosty Welcome and facing those British paras is a tough task. While true that the Soviet Rifle squads have more SMGs than many formations bumping that number even higher for urban fighting should be nice. Having a few LMGs around (they setup faster in buildings than HMGs) would be nice to have for covering fire down long streets and adding some tank hunter teams will give you a pretty good infantry setup. Can you get the resupply trucks in QB - I never did check. If you can do.

Not sure what to say about armour support but you have lots of ideas already.

I would not go crazy with engineers but a few added teams for mouse holing would be a good idea.

[db_zero]

I'm facing Paras in Longsdales Block and they are devastating. My Kriegsmarines are probably wishing for UBoat duty. Well at least they served their purpose soaking up bullets and inflicting a few casualties.

If it wasn't for the 1 King Tiger and Stugs the SMG armed paras would be next to impossible to dislodge. Hopefully the paras are running low on bullets.

My opponent has promised me a surprise or 2. I wonder what he has up his sleeve.

[Apocal]

Just a pet peeve...

Most of what the folks here are advocating reflect units that are extremely costly in Rarity points. For a reason. If you and your opponent agree to leave rarity unrestricted and cherry pick at will, you will have a battle of uber weapons that really has nothing to do with actual conditions on the battlefield.

Submachine gun companies, sapper/pioneer battalions, flamethrower platoons, Panther Gs, MarkIV Hs, StuG IIIGs, T-34s (either 76 or 85), SU-76s, medium howitzers and most (maybe all) Soviet mortars have a rarity cost of zero. OT-34s (~1400 rarity) and IS-2s (~1000) are limited, but both well within the realm of even small assaults (~1900 rarity budget) for the attacker at least. Those are the only two suggestions I've seen in this thread that are somewhat pricey in terms of rarity.

Oh and heavy artillery, that is pricey in both point and rarity terms though, so I don't bother in RT.

For a more realistic, demanding approach (if that is desired), keep the rarity points low and fight your urban fights with lots of infantry and very few vehicles and specialized weapons. Which is the way they were fought historically. An added benefit is it forces you to get better at fire and maneuver rather than building demolition.

Yeah, but you'll lose a lot in H2H assaulting a city like that.

[ScoutPL]

Yeah, but you'll lose a lot in H2H assaulting a city like that.

Which is why on any battlefield you will find the defender trying to turn them (urban areas) into fortresses and the attacker attempting to avoid them as much as possible. Unless your boss is a charismatic maniac named Adolf Hitler.

There are numerous examples on both the Eastern and Western fronts of the attacker using maneuver forces to isolate urban areas in order to reduce them later. Usually with pure infantry divisions or armored formations that have been stripped of most of their vehicles for one reason or another.

[Frankster65]

For a more realistic, demanding approach (if that is desired), keep the rarity points low and fight your urban fights with lots of infantry and very few vehicles and specialized weapons. Which is the way they were fought historically. An added benefit is it forces you to get better at fire and maneuver rather than building demolition.

Absolutely agree. I actually tend to play my CMx2 games this way. The other day I finished up a QB I had set-up against the AI where I was the commander of a German Security Battalion less a company. I had barb wire, mines and two attached 75mm infantry guns, off map. I was against an all infantry only rifle battalion which I gave AI a 25+ bonus in points. That battle was the most fun to date I've had in this game. It was a nailbiter. Quite interesting trying to defend and area with squads which only have bolt action rifles.