Urban fighting force composition

[Apocal]

I've not seen any with rifle grenades in my time with the game.

My central problem with urban combat/close combat is the lack of any good assault command. Quick works decently well, but it's primary use as a movement command makes it a poor work around.

Yeah, I really wish that Assault behaved more like a mix of quick+hunt, wherein a team moves until engaged, then it drops to the ground and fires back (if possible) and another team moves forward.

[Duckman]

Be interesting to see just how extensively tanks were used [in urban combat] in WW2. There must be plenty of documentation somewhere. My impression from what I recall is they were used quite a bit, but just what that really amounted to I can't say.

From looking at pictures of and reading anecdotes of the late war urban battles there seems to have been plenty of armour used, although that may be partly due to the fact that there was more armour around than earlier in the war. Late-war American divisions usually had at least a tank battalion attached (plus its own tank destroyers etc), and the Soviets built over 7000 SU-76s in 1944 alone which were all sent to the infantry as fire support.

The need for armour (and self-propelled artillery) to deal with urban strongpoints is obvious, and it seems it was well understood back then as well.

I would venture to guess the Germans with their doctrine, organization and experience may have been more extensive, but that's just a guess.

I think it's rather the opposite; the Allies had (a lot) more armour available so armour support would be more likely for Allied units.

One a side note I do recall early war reports from the American Army that there were complains about regular infantry being used as armored infantry and that they really didn't understand the role. I'm user the assumption armored infantry units tended to work with tanks more?

The Germans had armoured divisions from the beginning of the war where all arms (tanks, infantry, and artillery) practiced together. The British on the other hand were notoriously bad at this and had most of their tanks in separate units with no organic infantry or artillery.

The Americans set up proper all-arms armoured divisions but there was of course a learning curve, and infantry divisions would also regularly work with tanks since there were a lot of independent tank battalions around to support them (see above). I remember reading that things improved later in the war when unit attachments were made permanent so the infantry and tanks could train together and form proper relationships.

[Pelican Pal]

The current assault command has enough problems that I think it should be wiped.

It splits your squad into two elements that still share suppression and morale. Which means that if anything devastating happens to the movement element the covering element is left cowering and unable to do anything, and if the assaulting unit is too small it is left without the ability to execute an assault command.

I would find it much more useful is if assault was a command that allowed an element to move quickly and aggressively. Essentially a movement command that would be used for a squad to cover the last 20-30 meters are so to an enemy position. Grenading and firing their way into the position.

Right now quick can kinda fill that gap, however there are a bunch of problems with it that cause all kinds of headache. The men in the unit don't move in a very aggressive manner, and will only occasionally engage targets of opportunity. Furthermore, if the squad does take heavy fire/casualties they switch to FAST movement which makes their problems even worse. As they are now running very quickly into an enemy position and are much less likely to see or engage targets of opportunity.

[db_zero]

I've see AT rifle grenades used in Italy-I lost a MarkIV to my opponent in close quarters in a town.

Unfortunately I also see AT rifle grenades being wasted in long range shots as well as against infantry. You really don;t have much control and it seems like a matter of luck.

I've tried a fast move followed by an assault against German tanks in RT to see it they would toss a few AT grenades but so far the tanks have won and machine gunned the assaulting infantry.

[db_zero]

Unfortunately I hadn't been introduced to the idea of modding different terrain types to disguise them. MikeyD and RockinHarry would open my eyes on that. I have a larger version of that same map that I will apply some of the lessons though I don't expect I would do that until the 3.0 upgrade for CMFI is available.

Here is a sample of what I should have been doing. The area where the buildings would have stood are boulder tiles, impassable to vehicles. The street itself is mud. They are both replaced with RockinHarry's rubble tile. I did try replacing the heavy woods tile, however it still shows brush through the rubble. (hint to MikeyD, RockinHarry or any other intrepid modders out there. A heavy woods tile would be a better candidate for a rubbled, impassable to armor, concealment bonus terrain). I was hoping for something that would add concealment for troops hunkered down in it.

The net effect is armor can negotiate the street at the risk of bogging, but can not drive through the building remains (potential for cellars collapsing etc)

At the moment no and honestly I am not sure we will ever see that. Part of the deal with creating this terrain is you aren't faced with the limitations of a building rubble tile. That was where for me anyway the idea originated. Before we could position AT teams in buildings I tried to approach the challenge of Infantry capabilities by altering the terrain. That premise is till the primary reason for doing this, the look is an added benefit. You can emplace anything you want, AT guns, mines, Vehicles, bunkers, ammo piles etc. The effect is also enhanced with elevation changes. I just don't see BF having buildings collapse that would then change the terrain tile and the elevation not just to the building tile, but surrounding tiles as well.

A very nice map to play on. You also discover why the Chicago Typewriter-Tommy Gun was so useful and popular in street fighting. It would have been interesting to see what would have occurred if the American employed SMG formations like the Russians did.

The BAR is a also a beast. Just think if the Americans deployed mixed Tommy Gun/BAR units.

I recalls the Tommy Gun was a fairly expensive weapon back in the day.

[Skwabie]

I've tried a fast move followed by an assault against German tanks in RT to see it they would toss a few AT grenades but so far the tanks have won and machine gunned the assaulting infantry.

db_zero I don't get it, if the inf has to run some distance to get to the tank isn't it like suicide. Wait in a bush or even a house, let the tank come or carefully navigate the inf squad to an ambush spot close to the tank is better I reckon.

[Michael Emrys]

The British on the other hand were notoriously bad at this and had most of their tanks in separate units with no organic infantry or artillery.

British armoured divisions had organic artillery and infantry from the start of the war. But at first they were woefully under-supplied with infantry, and even when the ratio of infantry to armor was better balanced, the two arms rarely trained together. As a result, their integration and mutual support in battle left a lot to be desired. Once they got used to working together, their performance improved, but it doesn't seem that they ever got to the same level as the Germans when they were in their heyday.

Michael

[LukeFF]

Do russians in CMRT have grenadier troops?

Neither the Mosin nor the SVT could fire rifle grenades.

[LukeFF]

I recalls the Tommy Gun was a fairly expensive weapon back in the day.

Yes, that's why it was replaced by the M3 Grease Gun.

[mjkerner]

I've see AT rifle grenades used in Italy-I lost a MarkIV to my opponent in close quarters in a town.

Unfortunately I also see AT rifle grenades being wasted in long range shots as well as against infantry. You really don;t have much control and it seems like a matter of luck.

I've tried a fast move followed by an assault against German tanks in RT to see it they would toss a few AT grenades but so far the tanks have won and machine gunned the assaulting infantry.

I think Target Light will prevent fausts/schrecks/rifle grenades from firing, db.