East Front literature!

[Bastables]

I would like to add two of my favourite books on WW2: "Tankrider" by Bessonov and "Penalty Strike" by Pylcyn.

"Tankrider" is a memoir written by a Soviet lieutenant who fought from August '43 till May '45. He and his men were tank riders (tankodesantniki), who in small teams together with T-34 and later IS-2 tanks had to lead the way for the bigger forces that were exploiting the gap after the front was broken. He tells an honest story, mentioning both combat action and more quiet life when his men were given a moment to rest.

personally for me it was also interesting to read about their tactics - they had a platoon of tanks (I'm speaking from my memory, it was few years ago when I read this book last time) with tank riders and they had to fight the blocking elements of retreating Germans and pursue them, not giving a chance to regroup and rebuild the defenses. Being always at the spearhead, he was one of the first Soviet soldiers who entered Lvov in '44

A story of a brave soldier who fought for almost two years leading the way.

"Penalty Strike" is a memoir written by Penal Battalion commanding officer (I think he was a company leader). He wasn't sentenced but assigned to it (it was a a dangerous role so he had his own bonuses - bigger paycheck etc). Under his command were former officers who committed some crime - be it a cowardice act, looting, drinking or something else. They were striped from their rank and sentenced for up to three months to penal battalion. If they were wounded, or made out alive for the whole sentence term, or made some heroic act, they were pardoned, recieving their rank and medals back.

Pylcyn also participated in liberation of Byelorussia, if I remember correctly, and greeted the end of war in Czech republic, where in Spring '45 he was shot to the head by a German sniper but survived.

This book will be also interesting for those who would like to know how was it fighting in Penal battalion from the first hands instead of using old refurbished cliches.

Pylcyn goes in detail about the weapons (Soviet and German as well) and tactics they've used, what were their relationship with higher command and his own soldiers (after all, some were higher in rank before they got to that battalion, so it was not the same as commanding usual privates).

On a sidenote, speaking of Jason Mark's literature - are there any chance to buy it anywhere in e-version? my library is big as it is, so I'm trying to save space (and trees ) by reading from Kindle.

Brought Penalty Strike as it was available on kindle, I'll grab tank rider if and when it turns up on eformat.

Thanks for the recommendations.

[76mm]

yeah that is the one area where my kindle fails me and unfortunately it is military histories where I really want that stuff that it fails... end result my bookshelves are turning into a military library as the rest of my stuff becomes available on kindle.

I live overseas so also much prefer to buy on Kindle, but for some reason many books about the East Front are not available on Kindle, even if they don't have many maps, etc. Kind of a drag.

[Broadsword56]

Picked this one up in Kindle edition the other day. Good operational detail yet highly readable and vivid. These were originally published in topical US Army training pamphlets, but Tsouras has collected them, put them in chronological order, annotated them, and corrected details like original errors in OOB:

Panzers on the Eastern Front: General Erhard Raus and His Panzer Divisions in Russia 1941 - 1945, by Peter Tsouras.

[sburke]

I live overseas so also much prefer to buy on Kindle, but for some reason many books about the East Front are not available on Kindle, even if they don't have many maps, etc. Kind of a drag.

True and this is partly why I've ended up reading a lot more stuff on Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam lately. Lots of stuff for kindle. Was in Japan over New Years, used to be if I ran out I was screwed as there just is not much available in English. Now, no longer a problem.

[Crinius]

Unfortunately not. I only have one of his books--Island of Fire--and given that there are LOTS of pictures and maps I don't think it would be a great reading experience on the Kindle.

Iam having no problems with the kindle. I also have the Kindle Fíre HD so I load books on both of my Kindles. While reading on the Paperwhite I watch the picures and maps on the Fire HD. Now I prefer tihs method over books as I can zoom in and out of maps and I never have the issue with maps being to small to find specific places.

[76mm]

Thanks for the link John, but there is little threat of me running out of reading materials for the foreseeable future...in addition to my existing bookshelf and what's available on Kindle, I've recently learned that Amazon delivers hard copy books from the US to Moscow, at a price, of course.

[Ssnake51]

Iam having no problems with the kindle. I also have the Kindle Fíre HD so I load books on both of my Kindles. While reading on the Paperwhite I watch the picures and maps on the Fire HD. Now I prefer tihs method over books as I can zoom in and out of maps and I never have the issue with maps being to small to find specific places.

Agree. Am using iPad and it often makes it much easier to view maps and pictures on it than in the paperbook version.

That is a neat trick using the Paperwhite for reading and the Fire HD for displaying maps. Hadn't thought of doing that.

[MengJiaoRedux]

MengJiaoRedux,

If you're interested in Russian losses, am sure you'll get quite the education from this page long thread at The Dupuy Institute. The subject is Soviet losses, and there's quite the discussion, by a former Soviet military personnel record archivist, of the methodology used for sorting out losses by category, avoiding double and triple accounting, sources of loss datas and how they were cross checked. Krivosheev's declassified numbers compared with other figures and more. When the thread was put up in 2003, the now-Russian archivist said the count for privates and junior leaders had gone only through "O," working alphabetically.

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000051.html

Regards,

John Kettler

Yes, so it is odd that more recent books like Absolute War and more recent Glantz books are trending toward much lower combat losses (killed, captured, too-wounded to get back to fighting). The problem may be that, if you look at the extremes (the dubious census figure of almost 200 million Russians -- Absolute War suggests that is off by 10% at least which means total Russian population losses would only be around 12 million AND you have to fit the combat losses into that (plus 4 years of stressed population growth -- say 4 million). If other (non-combat or civilian) and combat are roughly the same then that's 8 million of each which seems to be the number that recent trends point to. Meanwhile at the other extreme, from the point of view of Russian formations asking for replacements (in Glantz) -- for some reason those are nowhere near what you would expect -- implying once again, that the heaviest Russian losses were in the big encirclements of 1941 when whole units vanished.

Moreover, if you read carefully, in say Glantz and Army-level German sources, a certain number of Russian units supposedly wiped out (in German accounts), are back in action in less than a month. All of this seems to me to imply that Russian combat losses have been systematically overstated in most sources.

[JonS]

I've recently learned that Amazon delivers hard copy books from the US to Moscow, at a price, of course.

Try The Book Depository. The books are a little more expensive, but the shipping is free. Depending on he book that can make it a lot cheaper. Plus, to my eye, TBD's web design is much cleaner.

[Collingwood]

Moreover, if you read carefully, in say Glantz and Army-level German sources, a certain number of Russian units supposedly wiped out (in German accounts), are back in action in less than a month. All of this seems to me to imply that Russian combat losses have been systematically overstated in most sources.

To add confusion to that, I recall the Soviets sometimes re-created units after total or near total loss, using the same number/title. So yes, units could be back in action - but only in name. Mind you the Soviets weren't the only ones to do this. It's also possible units are genuinely wiped out, but are mis-identified in German accounts.

Overstating enemy losses happened in other arms and theatres - for example ubootwaffe claimed sinkings were often very far from reality.

[Aragorn2002]

After the war the Soviets exaggerated their losses to justify their actions and strengthen their claims. Now the Russians try to do the opposite, because of national pride. It is that simple.

[Broadsword56]

What are some more good sources of hard data for OOB and strength and equipment for units on both sides in Bagration (particularly in the 1st Guards Motorized Rifle Division sector where the Soviet campaign will be located)?

In my online searches the ones that come up most often are Glantz's translation of the Soviet general staff study on Bagration, the Soviet Blitzkrieg book, and the Zaloga campaign book on Bagration in the Osprey series.

So I have a pretty good roster of the units that would have been there, down to regimental level, but still really no idea of what men and weapons they actually had to fight with on, say, 24 June.

The accounts all say that units on both sides were way below their paper TO&E, and that the 78 Sturm Division was the largest and most powerful formation in Army Group Centre. But I haven't found anything beyond those generalities.

I'm fine with just using the data of a well-regarded and well-researched wargame on Bagration. Does anyone own Minsk '44 (Noob, i'll bet you do) and are you able to extract any OOB/weapon/strength data for this sector? If so, please PM me. There's also an ASL expansion in this sector called Onslaught to Orsha, although it's super tactical so I don't know how much info it would have about the numbers and kit up to company, battalion, regiment and division.

[Maybe I'll get more response if I say why I'm looking for this info: Some of us are working on a Cyberboard scenario for Bagration to the boardgame Panzer Command (Victory Games, 1986). The map will correspond exactly to the master map(s) for the Soviet campaign in RT, so it will give players the ability to play at division/corps level with company-sized counters, then use the situations to stage battles anywhere for RT by just slicing off the part of the campaign master map they need. My plan is to share the scenario on the Repository and elsewhere to give more players the chance to enjoy the operational-tactical experience.]

[MengJiaoRedux]

After the war the Soviets exaggerated their losses to justify their actions and strengthen their claims. Now the Russians try to do the opposite, because of national pride. It is that simple.

On the other hand, maybe there are different kinds of data. The really huge losses seem to be based on demographics which in turn are based on what is probably an unreliable census (call that the 1950 loss statement of about 26 million total including civilian and non-combat losses). Next in terms of size of loss is the most recent loss-by-loss tally (call that the 2003 statement -- 13 million) -- but this seems only slightly more reliable than the unreliable census since it is really a matter of deaths over some period for anyone associated with any Soviet armed force and so includes non-combat losses.

Finally, there is the official 1993 loss tally of around 8-9 million permanent combat losses (killed, captured and too-wounded to return to combat ever). This 8-9 million figure has some advantages in relating to reality since it fits within the smaller range of census numbers and is roughly equal to non-combat losses in that scenario plus it is only about twice the Axis losses on the Eastern Front. All of which seems reasonable to me.

[Sequoia]

I have Soviet Blitzkrieg as a source for both the Soviet and Army Group Center OOBs for Bagration and I have no reason to believe it to be inaccurate, but I have not found a good source for reinforcements brought into the battle after say, the fall of Minsk. From what I can surmise, Adairs' Hitler's Greatest Defeat does not contain this information either. Can any one help?

[Petrus58]

There is a very interesting chapter on Soviet war losses by John Erickson in Barbarossa: The Axis and the Allies, edited by Erickson and David Dilks (Edinburgh, 1994). It is a bit old now, and may well have been superseded by more recent research, but it does illustrate just how difficult and complex this subject is.

[umlaut]

Lots of interesting titles in this thread.

I´ve just ordered four of them from the Danish State Library´s website. They should be available tomorrow.

Alas, I´ll have to walk almost half a mile through the park to pick them up.

[BLSTK]

You could always pretend you are assaulting an enemy position somewhere in Belorussia. Just don't miss the book return date.

[76mm]

Does anyone own Minsk '44 (Noob, i'll bet you do) and are you able to extract any OOB/weapon/strength data for this sector?

I have Minsk 44 but don't understand what data you are looking for. What sector? What dates?

[Wodin]

If you click the link to my Tactical wargames facebook page you'll find a few lists of nooks..from memoirs to novels..WW1 to Vietnam. Any book mentioned in the lists in my eyes are must buys.

[Grisha]

I have a copy from an old Soviet publication of "Zvezda," or 'Star' in english. Think the author was Kazakevich, a razvedchik(scout) in WWII who turned to prose and poetry afterward. They made a couple movies based on the novella, one in the 1960s and a remake in the 2000s. It's a good story and offers an interesting peek into Red Army reconnaissance.

If anyone cares for a copy just drop me a private.

[dsf]

There is a very interesting chapter on Soviet war losses by John Erickson in Barbarossa: The Axis and the Allies, edited by Erickson and David Dilks (Edinburgh, 1994). It is a bit old now, and may well have been superseded by more recent research, but it does illustrate just how difficult and complex this subject is.

Soviet losses are documented in Krivosheev's book Великая Отечественная без грифа секретности. Книга потерь, which has just been republished. There is lots of detail. It may be online, too. It has become a standard reference on the Red Army.

http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/25614968/

Regards

Scott Fraser

[76mm]

dsf, thanks for that link, but what kind of info/data does that book cover?

Just tables of loss data? To what level of detail?

[dsf]

dsf, thanks for that link, but what kind of info/data does that book cover?

Just tables of loss data? To what level of detail?

It has way too much detail, like reading actuarial data. Losses are listed for both civilian and military casualties, broken out by cause and age and so on. There are lots of tables.

Here's a link to his follow-on book, which is expanded to cover Soviet/Russian loses in the XX Century. You will be able to see what I mean.

http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt#w06.htm-_Toc536603358

Regards

Scott Fraser

[76mm]

Thanks. Whew, looks pretty dense. But it might be helpful for something I'm working on, so might need to pick it up...

[dsf]

What are some more good sources of hard data for OOB and strength and equipment for units on both sides in Bagration (particularly in the 1st Guards Motorized Rifle Division sector where the Soviet campaign will be located)?

In my online searches the ones that come up most often are Glantz's translation of the Soviet general staff study on Bagration, the Soviet Blitzkrieg book, and the Zaloga campaign book on Bagration in the Osprey series.

So I have a pretty good roster of the units that would have been there, down to regimental level, but still really no idea of what men and weapons they actually had to fight with on, say, 24 June.

The accounts all say that units on both sides were way below their paper TO&E, and that the 78 Sturm Division was the largest and most powerful formation in Army Group Centre. But I haven't found anything beyond those generalities.

I'm fine with just using the data of a well-regarded and well-researched wargame on Bagration. Does anyone own Minsk '44 (Noob, i'll bet you do) and are you able to extract any OOB/weapon/strength data for this sector? If so, please PM me. There's also an ASL expansion in this sector called Onslaught to Orsha, although it's super tactical so I don't know how much info it would have about the numbers and kit up to company, battalion, regiment and division.

[Maybe I'll get more response if I say why I'm looking for this info: Some of us are working on a Cyberboard scenario for Bagration to the boardgame Panzer Command (Victory Games, 1986). The map will correspond exactly to the master map(s) for the Soviet campaign in RT, so it will give players the ability to play at division/corps level with company-sized counters, then use the situations to stage battles anywhere for RT by just slicing off the part of the campaign master map they need. My plan is to share the scenario on the Repository and elsewhere to give more players the chance to enjoy the operational-tactical experience.]

Try anad find V.L.Goncharov's book on Bagration ISBN 978-5-9533-5544-5 It is in Russian, but is an excellent single-volume source on Bagration. I don't know where 1gv.msd was fighting --- information that would help -- but there is info in it on 1gv.sd as part of 11 Gv Army, 3rd Belorussian Front.

Regards

Scott Fraser