A Canadian Cat Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Chain of command is, and should be, key ( as an aside; loss of morale being the only penalty at present. But that loss is pretty significant. Out of command a team or squad is less likely to stay put and keep fighting when they start taking fire. They go to shaken faster and more often. I have no doubt that keeping C2 when the bullets are flying gives you a non trivial advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 The other issue that is confusing about this is that on the basis set out in the manual, the icon next to the battalion hq does not indicate 5 Coy's status vis a vis Battalion but rather Battalion's status vis a vis brigade / regt. But aren't Battalion HQs the highest level of command in the game? Or is there an off-map higher level of command which a battalion can be in or out of command with depending on whether it still has its radio man? I had always thought (partly because I believe what I read in the manual ... ) that the answer to this was "yes": so that, for example, to be able to call in higher level off map artillery that would not be part of the structure of the on-map units, there must be an off-the-map C2 link to assets that are controlled by the brigade / regiment? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Bil, Have you noticed any morale hit to the split squads yet? If so, please let us know. Not yet.. but then they haven't run into any opposition. When that happens I'm sure they will rapidly deteriorate. I will track that and report back if and when it happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 You may have noticed ISU-122 is currently using ISU-152 skins (hence the odd gun). Don't worry, all will be right with the vehicle before the game comes out. Heck, it may be all fixed before Bil and Elvis start trading shots! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfhand Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Thanks once again for the magnificent effort, Bil. Are you guys upgrading on the fly or playing the game out with a set version? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 sf, we will be updating as new BETAs are released... until something breaks at least. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai023 Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hey Bil Hardenberger, What software did you use to draw those awesome AOA arrows? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I looked at the screenshots of the Soviet infantry and see an image of what looks like an AK47. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AttorneyAtWar Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I looked at the screenshots of the Soviet infantry and see an image of what looks like an AK47. The game isn't finished (Obviously) so they are using assets from CM Afghanistan if I remember correctly to represent Soviet stuff. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I don't know what's available for types, but for ground attack, the types I'd find most appropriate are the Il-2, P-39 and P-63. This is because they were favored for the role, hit harder and the crews were specifically trained for ground attack. Pe-2s are dive bombers, but all the footage I've seen of them involved level bombing such as the B-25s, B-26s and A-20s did. Quick comment: P-39s and P-63s were almost exclusively used as standard, air-to-air combat fighters so would be inappropriate as CAS aircraft in CM. Incidentally, I don't think P-63s would have been operational at the time of Bagration and I also seem to remember that it was explicitly agreed that the Soviets would not employ them against the Germans. Kingcobras were therefore Asian-front only aircraft. Pe-2s were very good medium bombers, dive bombers and occasional CAS-style ground-attack aircraft. Think of them as light equivalents of the Ju-88. In any event, whatever air support you buy should involve at least a pair. The Russians didn't fly solo missions as a rule. John Kettler This mildly annoys me, in terms of CM's depiction of CAS. Almost all CAS missions flown on all sides involved several aircraft fighting as a unit, not one pilot signing his own death warrant by flying repeated, low-level attack runs over a single target-area. I would far rather CM modelled CAS by having at least 4-8 aircraft turn up at once, strike the map in one or maybe two turns' worth of attacks and then vacate the area before AAA is fully awake and/or they're spotted by an enemy fighter patrol. Think 30 seconds of a hellish cacophony of pistons, gunfire and ordnance and then the fast diminishing sound of pilots jinking their way to safer airspace. Bil, thanks for yet another AAR. I can't wait to see how this one develops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensal Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Quick comment: This mildly annoys me, in terms of CM's depiction of CAS. Almost all CAS missions flown on all sides involved several aircraft fighting as a unit, not one pilot signing his own death warrant by flying repeated, low-level attack runs over a single target-area. I would far rather CM modelled CAS by having at least 4-8 aircraft turn up at once, strike the map in one or maybe two turns' worth of attacks and then vacate the area before AAA is fully awake and/or they're spotted by an enemy fighter patrol. Think 30 seconds of a hellish cacophony of pistons, gunfire and ordnance and then the fast diminishing sound of pilots jinking their way to safer airspace. I agree with this. Other than during the last stages of the Falaise pocket I think it is fairly unlikely that pilots would have been carrying out several strafing runs in the same area 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 This mildly annoys me, in terms of CM's depiction of CAS. Almost all CAS missions flown on all sides involved several aircraft fighting as a unit, not one pilot signing his own death warrant by flying repeated, low-level attack runs over a single target-area. I would far rather CM modelled CAS by having at least 4-8 aircraft turn up at once, strike the map in one or maybe two turns' worth of attacks and then vacate the area before AAA is fully awake and/or they're spotted by an enemy fighter patrol. Think 30 seconds of a hellish cacophony of pistons, gunfire and ordnance and then the fast diminishing sound of pilots jinking their way to safer airspace. I concur. -F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hey Bil Hardenberger, What software did you use to draw those awesome AOA arrows? I second that. Do you know if can be used in videos? It would be a big improvement on the arrows I used for the last video AAR I produced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 This mildly annoys me, in terms of CM's depiction of CAS. Almost all CAS missions flown on all sides involved several aircraft fighting as a unit, not one pilot signing his own death warrant by flying repeated, low-level attack runs over a single target-area. I would far rather CM modelled CAS by having at least 4-8 aircraft turn up at once, strike the map in one or maybe two turns' worth of attacks and then vacate the area before AAA is fully awake and/or they're spotted by an enemy fighter patrol. Think 30 seconds of a hellish cacophony of pistons, gunfire and ordnance and then the fast diminishing sound of pilots jinking their way to safer airspace. Another agreement with this from me. This aspect will - or should, anyway - become much more important in v3.x, with ground AA units now able to to fire back directly at the CAS aircraft. Repeated runs by one aircraft over a (relatively) small target area is an invitation to be shot down, and as such was avoided wherever possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kensal Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 I had always thought (partly because I believe what I read in the manual ... ) that the answer to this was "yes": so that, for example, to be able to call in higher level off map artillery that would not be part of the structure of the on-map units, there must be an off-the-map C2 link to assets that are controlled by the brigade / regiment? I've done a quick test on this which suggests that the manual is wrong and that the platoon icon on a squad C2 indicator is telling us whether the squad is in C2 with its platoon, rather than the platoon being in C2 with its Company. I'll put the images on another thread so as not to disrupt this thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Agree that aircraft should not be bought in single units, but flights which attack sequentially, but they do not attack en masse, unless you want a high rate of fratricide. Historically, there are plenty of accounts of the last pairs of a flight having the roughest time as they flew through a fully awakened AA defence. If you are buying flights of aircraft, perhaps the proficiency of the flight could be an average, with each individual plane having a separate ranking. Even better, flights could be intercepted by the AI CAP (if available, depending on an air superiority rating) and a random number allowed to attack. Talking of AA doctrine, the Germans would vacate any non-AA vehicle and let the specialist units deal with the air threat. The Russians were encouraged to fire everything in the air, which could be surprisingly effective or lead to large casualties, will that be modelled? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tux Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 How an air attack was carried out was dictated largely by the target type. Obviously, multiple aircraft would not simultaneously attack a CM-style point target but would be forced to make consecutive attack runs. Attacking an area hundreds of metres across though (an airfield or battlefield, for example) would absolutely be carried out en masse, or even in line abreast, precisely so as to minimise exposure of each aircraft and the flight as a whole to AAA. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vark Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Tell that to most of the CAS pilots in the second world war. The risk from fragments of ordnance and collisions precluded that type of attack, unless by specialist units. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 3, 2014 Author Share Posted February 3, 2014 Hey Bil Hardenberger, What software did you use to draw those awesome AOA arrows? I use Photoshop for my arrows and other overlays. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Guys, I don't want this AAR to be derailed by side discussions that have nothing to do with the AAR itself. If you guys want to talk about CAS stuff, please start up a thread and talk about it there (one was just started today). But as a quick reminder, CAS has almost no place in a WW2 tactical game of this scale/scope at all. So arguing for better realism means arguing for us to remove air support options entirely. Be careful what you wish for Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Still moving forward.. KT1 has not been reached yet. I sure hope Elvis doesn't have an artillery barrage plotted in these woods... This image shows how I plan my advances with the Russian squads... I will keep the team with the LMG furthest back, with the best visibility into and around the area I am moving into... the second team (rifles) will advance with the lead team and stop short to cover the final push by the lead team (SMGs) to the final destination. All movement will be through cover, and covered terrain as much as possible. I will attempt to use these tactics whenever feasible while I scout.. the squads will scout split, but together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Steve, Got your message. Started thread Russian CAS Discussion here. http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=113499 The one you mentioned is about Luftwaffe FACs. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 That's a nice breakdown of the squads and utilization of each weapons strengths. :cool: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai023 Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 I use Photoshop for my arrows and other overlays. Got it. Really appreciate that! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Still moving forward.. KT1 has not been reached yet. I sure hope Elvis doesn't have an artillery barrage plotted in these woods... This image shows how I plan my advances with the Russian squads... I will keep the team with the LMG furthest back, with the best visibility into and around the area I am moving into... the second team (rifles) will advance with the lead team and stop short to cover the final push by the lead team (SMGs) to the final destination. All movement will be through cover, and covered terrain as much as possible. I will attempt to use these tactics whenever feasible while I scout.. the squads will scout split, but together. Sweet use of the UI to show numbers and weapons! Your lead unit: that last movement order looks like SLOW. Why crawl them up into the woods? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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