Coming soon to BFC...the War of 1812

[iMolestCats]

2. Zachary Taylor

3. William H. Harrison

Guess liking social studies at school really helped out on this one.

[A Canadian Cat]

Here's to Sir Isaac!

indeed. I knew he was a British general who died during battle in the War of 1812 but I did not recall that we was The British general (in Canada) at the time. Leaders of the British Army in Canada did not fair too well on the battle field - at least they when down during victorious efforts.

[c3k]

Their lack of fairness may have helped them achieve victory, but not faring well in battle could lead to a sad farewell afterwards.

Spellcheck: It lies.

[A Canadian Cat]

Rats and it is too late to edit my post to fix it. Now that is unfare, I mean unfair.

[BLSTK]

Kudos to both ASL Vet and The Cat Molester.

(Go figure...a Vet and a guy who could use a vet.)

The three officers from the War of 1812 who would one day become US President were:

Andrew Jackson

Zachary Taylor

William Henry Harrison

[Michael Emrys]

About Brock: no one has yet mentioned that he led the successful siege that won Detroit.

Michael

[BLSTK]

What seemed liked quite a catch back in the day seems less so today.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The entire purpose of attacking Canada was to dupe them into taking Detroit. Then they snatched victory from us at the last moment by giving it back.

[cool breeze]

Canada would be pretty different if it had Detroit, eh?

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, the subsequent peace treaties might well have set the US-Canada border significantly farther south, leaving most of what is now Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana and Washington State in Canada. The Columbia River might have been the border. Canada too might have become a very different, more industrialized nation, with the rich iron ores of the Great Lakes region at the disposal of newcomers. The great Yankee migration to the Upper Midwest which took place in the mid 19th century (due to overcrowding and climate change) might have resulted in many resuming (nominal) allegiance to the Crown, but bringing their entrepreneurial energy.

And with fewer Free states and Senators, the US Great Debate over slavery might have been more protracted.

EDIT: Oh, you're wisecracking about DEE-troit. Yeah, well fleeing slaves might well have become a part of the population in an enlarged Upper Canada, but a very different subsequent social evolution. Labor was always scarcer and more valuable in Canada, so they might have done a lot better for themselves, having arrived earlier. Who knows?

[BLSTK]

What role did Napoleon play in the War of 1812?

[Quintus Sertorius]

Is it too late to hand Detroit over to the Canucks?

[A Canadian Cat]

What role did Napoleon play in the War of 1812?

All right I'll take a shot without looking it up to be sure.

Not a lot directly but the distraction did two things:

1. The fact that there was a war going on in Europe encouraged the Americans to make their move because the British were busy.
   
2. British regular soldiers were busy dealing with Napoleon which left Canada less guarded than usual.
   

I am not sure if Napoleon actually encouraged the Americans or not but I do not think they needed any encouragement. They saw an opportunity and took it. Once Napoleon was defeated and more British Regulars arrived in North America the war pretty much went south for the Americans.

[ASL Veteran]

I believe it was Napoleon who sold America the Louisiana Territory, so if he hadn't sold it there wouldn't have been a battle of New Orleans with the Americans. Perhaps it would have been a battle between the French and British instead? I seem to recall that Napoleon sold Louisiana because of the Haitian revolt or something .... I don't remember all the details but I think it had something to do with Haiti. Just think, the entire Mississippi River could be British today if not for Nappy and his need for some quick cash.

[LongLeftFlank]

After 1789 when they gave back St Kitts to the Brits, the French no longer had a viable naval base to speak of in the New World, which meant no way to sustain an army capable of defending the Mississippi Territory. It's possible the Haitian rebellion deprived them of Port au Prince -- no idea. So, it was either sell the territory to the Yankees for cash, or else lose it to their encroachment, or worse, the hated British.

New Orleans was not fit for purpose as a naval base for some reason I'm not totally sure of -- never has been one in history, even though its position at the Mississippi mouth made it thrive as a commercial port. Too much silting (treacherous navigation for deeper draft warships) plus too frequent hurricanes with no sheltered anchorage would be my guess. And even though there are timber stands in the deep South I don't know if they're shipyard grade stores.

[Michael Emrys]

What role did Napoleon play in the War of 1812?

You could say that it was the Napoleonic Wars that precipitated the War of 1812. The Americans—or at least the wealthy Americans who engaged in international trade; those living in the interior of the country on the frontier didn't particularly give a damn—wanted to continue to conduct trade with France and the rest of French-dominated Europe. Britain sought to enforce a tight economic blockade. That was a direct conflict of interests. Also, Britain was suffering a manpower pinch, particularly the RN was having trouble acquiring and retaining seamen. Ever since the American Revolution there had been desertions from the RN who went to America to seek a better life. Most of those men wound up in ship crews, either in trading ships or the USN. This was a continuing aggravation to the British, who adopted the practice of stopping American merchant ships and "impressing" (a euphemism for kidnapping) any sailors they thought might have deserted. And sometimes just men they suspected of having been born in the UK. In the US this practice was enlarged upon as a pretext to go to war.

Also, a large part of the political classes had their eyes on Canada and saw what they thought was an opportunity to "liberate" it from the British Empire.

Absent the long running Napoleonic Wars, the historic War of 1812 would never have happened. There might well have been some other war as frictions and resentments between the two countries continued to simmer well into the 20th. century.

Michael

[LongLeftFlank]

Remember, we Canadians got good value out of those Redcoats and were happy to quarter them in our houses, pay the stamp duties, et al. to keep them there. We were less populated and more scattered than our cousins to the South, had no Appalachians to shield us from hostile Indians, and also had the only recently conquered Quebecois (my Mum's side of the family) to worry about....

By 1812, there was a thriving US-Canada commerce, and extensive cross-border migration and intermarriage, which continued largely uninterrupted by hostilities. Which has set the tone for cordial relations since, in spite of stupid politicians and the occasional bored staff officer on both sides. The fortifications of the still paranoid 1830s period (Fort Niagara, Lewiston ME, Halifax Citadel, etc.) are pretty impressive though, and must have cost a pretty penny. The Rideau Canal, a piece of engineering nearly as impressive as the Erie Canal, was built to allow light warships and supply barges passage from the Ottawa River to Georgian Bay (Lake Huron)

[Michael Emrys]

And even though there are timber stands in the deep South I don't know if they're shipyard grade stores.

Mostly softwoods, primarily pine of one sort or another SFAIK. Some kinds could be used for masts and spars, but fighting ships need oak or other hardwoods for hulls.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

Remember, we Canadians got good value out of those Redcoats and were happy to quarter them in our houses, pay the stamp duties, et al. to keep them there.

Indeed not to mention that a significant portion of the population were the families who were expelled from or fled from the US after the war of independence.

By 1812, there was a thriving US-Canada commerce, and extensive cross-border migration and intermarriage, which continued largely uninterrupted by hostilities. Which has set the tone for cordial relations since, in spite of stupid politicians and the occasional bored staff officer on both sides.

Indeed, pretty much still going like that.

[bruce90]

Yes, the subsequent peace treaties might well have set the US-Canada border significantly farther south, leaving most of what is now Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Montana and Washington State in Canada. The Columbia River might have been the border. Canada too might have become a very different, more industrialized nation, with the rich iron ores of the Great Lakes region at the disposal of newcomers. The great Yankee migration to the Upper Midwest which took place in the mid 19th century (due to overcrowding and climate change) might have resulted in many resuming (nominal) allegiance to the Crown, but bringing their entrepreneurial energy.

And with fewer Free states and Senators, the US Great Debate over slavery might have been more protracted.

EDIT: Oh, you're wisecracking about DEE-troit. Yeah, well fleeing slaves might well have become a part of the population in an enlarged Upper Canada, but a very different subsequent social evolution. Labor was always scarcer and more valuable in Canada, so they might have done a lot better for themselves, having arrived earlier. Who knows?

Imagine what all of that might have meant to the Native Americans. Surely they would have been better off?

[BLSTK]

Aye, Bruce. If anyone lost the War of 1812 it was the Native North Americans.

[Cymru]

That could be fun, and the changes needed to the game would also allow F&I, Rev War, and U.S. .

Changes! We don't need no stinking changes. I want the Grenadier Guards with Tiger IIs and the Connecticut militia using 155mm guns!

Oh, and Nebelwerfers...........please let there be Nebelwerfers.

[BLSTK]

What role did Napoleon play in the War of 1812?

Great responses here, guys. I wonder what would have happened had Napoleon successfully escaped to America. Any thoughts?

[kensal]

Great responses here, guys. I wonder what would have happened had Napoleon successfully escaped to America. Any thoughts?

I imagine he would have been in charge of the gaff within about 6 months and launching a lightning strike on Brazil...

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder what would have happened had Napoleon successfully escaped to America. Any thoughts?

He would have settled in New Orleans and drunk himself to death on the bourbon.

Michael