Coming soon to BFC...the War of 1812

[Pandur]

It seems you wandered into the wrong room, Pandur. The Kumbaya forum is two doors down on the right.

yawn.... .

...letting your new enemies safe conduct to their lines is anything but an honorable move.

i never talked to you personally at any point in my post, or aimed at you in any way.

the the incident you pick here is not honorable its pure idiotic... .

why would you let the enemy go, they should have cut them down with their sabres right on the spot. i guess these guys just lacked the balls to do it, washing their hands in "honor", like saying->

"Nah i dont feel like getting my hands dirty today, dont feel like risking my own precious live, let them go home, let the others do the killing...also its a nice story to tell at home on top of it all"

masking the lack of sense of duty as honor is the worst of the lot. no i dont have any honor in the way you understand honor, why should i, why should anyone in war, it goes against the concept and nature of war.

to send me in the kumbaya camp ist funny, these guys would put me on the stake in notime if they knew how i think. war is bout efficency in killing, in destroying and killing again, not bout honor. letting the enemy in front of you go is cowardice not more not less.

i leave you to it now, i see some of you guys are heavy in the romantic war camp, nothing i can do bout that, youll learn soon enough.

i guess this is locked soon anyways, serves no purpose.

[cool breeze]

i never talked to you personally at any point in my post, or aimed at you in any way.

the the incident you pick here is not honorable its pure idiotic... .

why would you let the enemy go, they should have cut them down with their sabres right on the spot. i guess these guys just lacked the balls to do it, washing their hands in "honor", like saying->

Where are ideas like this coming from? I know your in Austria but it reminds me of the trend the USA is partly taking. How is it not obvious that it is dishonorable to kill or imprison your dinner guest? Presumable your honored dinner guests. How much worse of a host can you be? Its not like they committed some kind of crime and need to be brought to justice.

And I think your wrong about what war is about... its not really about killing at least not usually. Lately its been about world domination and resources and power mixed with zealousy/hate/and fear. A lot of the time it is more about hearts and minds than about killing. Having honor and behaving honorably helps humongously in winning those hearts and minds.

[cool breeze]

letting the enemy in front of you go is cowardice not more not less.

How is it cowardice to let someone live to fight (you) another day? If you show a bested enemy mercy maybe they will tell their friends how great you are.

[Michael Emrys]

What really is honor? The concept goes back to Classical times and as near as I can figure meant nothing more than meriting the respect of one's peers. Now, obviously the respect of one's peers depends solely on what values they embrace. And though they may get very pious about those, there is a large degree of subjectivity in those values. Sight of the subjectivity can get lost when one's set all embrace them, giving them the appearance of universality. This appearance can be threatened or even shattered on encountering another culture that embraces different values. We see that happening in our own day. In a situation like that, we believe that the enemy has acted "dishonorably" and in reaction are apt to slip many of the rules of our own conduct that we would otherwise have observed.

Michael

[BLSTK]

Speaking of respect, there remains to this day a unique relationship between neighbors/neighbours that is difficult to characterize. I call it a mutual respect.

Perhaps it is proof of that same respect that even after 130 posts, no one has asked the question: Who won the War of 1812?

[altipueri]

We lost.

Cribbed from wiki:

"The War of 1812 was a 32-month military conflict between the United States on the one side, and on the other Great Britain, its colonies and its Indian allies in North America. The outcome resolved many issues which remained from the American War of Independence, but involved no boundary changes. The United States declared war in 1812 for several reasons, including trade restrictions brought about by Britain's continuing war with France, the impressment of American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy, British support of American Indian tribes against American expansion, outrage over insults to national honor after humiliations on the high seas, and possible American interest in annexing Canada.[3]

The war was fought in three principal theatres. Firstly, at sea, warships and privateers of both sides attacked each other's merchant ships, while the British blockaded the Atlantic coast of the U.S. and mounted large-scale raids in the later stages of the war. Secondly, both land and naval battles were fought on the American–Canadian frontier, which ran along the Great Lakes, the Saint Lawrence River and the northern end of Lake Champlain. Thirdly, the American South and Gulf Coast also saw major land battles in which the American forces defeated Britain's Indian allies and repulsed a British invasion force at New Orleans. Both sides invaded each other's territory, but these invasions were unsuccessful or made temporary by the Treaty of Ghent, which restored all occupied territory to its pre-war owner.

With the majority of its army and naval forces tied down in Europe fighting the Napoleonic Wars until 1814, the British at first used a defensive strategy, repelling multiple American invasions of the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada. However, the Americans gained control over Lake Erie in 1813, seized parts of western Ontario, and ended the prospect of an Indian confederacy and an independent Indian state in the Midwest under British sponsorship. In September 1814, a British force invaded and occupied eastern Maine, which they would hold for the duration of the war. In the Southwest, General Andrew Jackson destroyed the military strength of the Creek nation at the Battle of Horseshoe Bend in 1814. With the defeat of Napoleon in 1814 on April 6, the British adopted a more aggressive strategy, sending in three large invasion armies. The British victory at the Battle of Bladensburg in August 1814 allowed them to capture and burn Washington, D.C. American victories in September 1814 and January 1815 repulsed all three British invasions in New York, Baltimore and New Orleans.

In the United States, victories at the Battle of New Orleans in 1815 and in the Battle of Baltimore of 1814 (which inspired the lyrics of the American national anthem, "The Star-Spangled Banner") produced a sense of euphoria over a "second war of independence" against Britain.[citation needed] Peace brought an "Era of Good Feelings" to the U.S. in which partisan animosity nearly vanished. Canada also emerged from the war with a heightened sense of national feeling and solidarity, as it celebrated its defeat of multiple invasions. Battles such as the Battle of Queenston Heights and the Battle of Crysler's Farm became iconic for English-speaking Canadians. In Canada, especially Ontario, memory of the war retains national significance, as the invasions were largely perceived by Canadians as an annexation attempt by the United States. In Canada, numerous ceremonies took place in 2012 to remember the war, offer historical lessons and celebrate 200 years of peace between Canada and the United States.[4] The war is scarcely remembered in Britain today, as it regarded the conflict as sideshow to the much larger Napoleonic Wars raging in Europe. As such it welcomed an era of peaceful relations and trade with the United States.

[BLSTK]

Great post, alti.

Here's to the next 200 years!

[BLSTK]

BTW, who's "we"?

[altipueri]

Poor old Brits !

By the way - there's a full 37 turn 1812 War scenario in AGEOD's "Wars in America" or BOA2 game - and two shorter scenarios for the Great Lakes scrap in 1813 (24 turns) and New Orleans 1814-1815 (6 turns). It went on until 1815 because British General Packenham didn't know peace was signed on 24th December 1814. I guess the internet must have been down.

AGEOD games are virtually free these days - I got the American Civil War, Wars in America and WW1 game in a 3 game pack retail in UK store Game last week for a 3 for £10 offer. I bought 3 sets of them to give to pals in the forlorn hope they might be interested in wargames. "Bunch of tossers wargamers." Oh what the hell. I tried.

[BLSTK]

Interesting. I think both sides could (and do) argue justifiably that they were the victors. Certainly, as a Canadian I see the outcome as having shaped the nation's identity as much as the War of Independence did south of the border.

[A Canadian Cat]

war is the most dishonorable thing humans are able to perform, its about taking stuff, killing stuff and destroying stuff? whats honorable about it?

honor in war is a romantic notion that gets injected into stories and anecdotes mostly after the war, its all BS. honor is mostly a selling point to get idiots to sign up and "earn" some honor, cause there is no other reason to sign up rly.

It might come as a surprise to hear me say I think you are quite correct in many ways. And held a nearly identical view for a long time. I too get angry when I hear the "us against them" dehumanizing propaganda or the "you are with us or against" us talk. Bottom line much of war is powerful people getting us normal folk to do their dirty work for them - and that pisses me off. The leaders are not risking their lives. So, in that sense it is BS to convince us to join up.

However at some point you have to stand up against aggression. Or sometimes you have little real choice but to be there in uniform. At that point you as a solider can behave with honor or not. It is your choice. Regardless of the honor of those who started it or those who send you or the BS they fed you. *You* still have agency even in those restricted circumstances and it is *you* you decide how you will conduct yourself. In that sense an individual can behave with honour even for an dishonourable cause.

Just MHO

[Michael Emrys]

BTW, who's "we"?

If you mean "Who lost?" I'd have to say the Native Americans. They were for the greatest part driven off their lands and nearly exterminated.

Michael

[BLSTK]

Ageed. Michael, you might want to check out post # 96. It's the one that's NOT about beaver tail.

[BLSTK]

Where and when did the war come to an end?

[altipueri]

War ended by Treaty of Ghent December 24th 1814.

But the last signficant battle was the invasion of New Orleans from January 1815 to about June 1815. The Americans were helped by a bunch of pirates.

[Michael Emrys]

War ended by Treaty of Ghent December 24th 1814.

But the last signficant battle was the invasion of New Orleans from January 1815 to about June 1815. The Americans were helped by a bunch of pirates.

That should be "...attempted invasion...". The Brits never actually got all that close to the city. And the battle was over by the second or third day. I wonder where you got June 1815 from.

Michael

[altipueri]

Quite right. Must have been a brain fart.

There were some scraps that went on because news of the Treaty of Ghent and its ratification were not known in time. Maybe the Internet was down.

There's some scenarios in the AGEOD game WiA. Maybe I said that already.

Also the Brits paid compensation for freeing slaves.

[Michael Emrys]

There were some scraps that went on because news of the Treaty of Ghent and its ratification were not known in time. Maybe the Internet was down.

True enough. In those days it could take weeks or even months for news to reach distant parts of the globe.

BTW, I wonder if any interesting incidents occurred as a result of one side receiving news of a declaration of war before the other. (Aside from the interesting discussion following this post: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1459754&postcount=109)

Michael

[BLSTK]

Alti, you never cease to amaze. Even when I threw in a red herring (trick question), you nailed it.

And thanks for the clarification, Michael.

I'm thinking Mardi Gras that year must have been quite the party.

[BLSTK]

I stumbled across an interesting document entitled: "The Undefended Border: the Myth and the Reality", detailing the on-again-off-again relationship between the United States and Canada.

Check out the following link:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/obj/008004/f2/H-1_en.pdf

[BLSTK]

PS - Good neighbo(u)rs don't need fences...

[Michael Emrys]

PS - Good neighbo(u)rs don't need fences...

You do if you don't want the neighbors' toddlers drowning in your swimming pool.

Michael

[BLSTK]

Good neighbo(u)rs don't have toddlers.

[Michael Emrys]

Good neighbo(u)rs don't have toddlers.

I see. Let me ask you, do children in your neighborhood often go permanently missing? Just wondering...

Michael

[BLSTK]

Michael, they are not "missing". I know the name and location of every single one of them.