slysniper Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I think GaJ could stack the odds significantly in his favor using the methods I mentioned earlier. It would be risky, yes, but I am of the view that when you are at a disadvantage you need to take more risks rather than fewer to maximize your chances of winning. I'm not sure what alternative low-risk plan GaJ may have for dealing with Bill's tanks. He's not likely to sneak any Schreck teams into range in that terrain. For the moment it looks like smoke, but that is temporary. agree here 100% Dont be afraid to try and win. His only chance is to somehow switch the armor advantage. And the most likely way to do that is to somehow ambush or take on the Shermans with a 2-1 advantage. And generally to do that you have to dictate where and how that is to happen, not wait for the enemy to by chance give you that oppotunity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dumrox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Bil does seem to have figured out GaJ's intentions, but it's shaping up to be a pretty even fight on Bil's right. Bil will be sending a company+ along with 2 Stuarts and 1 Sherman. If I remember from the earlier turns, GaJ's got a company over there plus he's sending both PzIV's to that flank. If the Sherman that will be attacking from the center to the right gets taken out, Bil may be forced to sihift one of his remaining Shermans to the right. That will only leave one Sherman and a few troops to hold back GaJ's infantry on Bil's left. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I actually have to disagree. In this situation with GaJ I'd pull back and try to move laterally some behind those hills to confuse Bil as to exactly where I am. However on foot, he can only confuse Bil as to exact location, not vicinity. GaJ is outnumbered though, and once he closes to within sight of the enemy it'll be dangerous for him to aggressively maneuver his armor. It COULD work brilliantly, or disastrously. I'd play it safe, and while not keyholing them, use cover and perhaps cover armor arcs, and slowly keep pace with my infantry. I'd hope to have my Pz sitting still when Bil's armor pops out, this can make all the difference, especially if it's a stuart and the Pz hits, because it'll most likely be a 1 shot kill in that case. Any aggressive maneuver is risky and with 2 Pz IV's I just dont see it as worth the chance. At this point I'd really try to force Bil to come to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I actually have to disagree. In this situation with GaJ I'd pull back and try to move laterally some behind those hills to confuse Bil as to exactly where I am. However on foot, he can only confuse Bil as to exact location, not vicinity. GaJ is outnumbered though, and once he closes to within sight of the enemy it'll be dangerous for him to aggressively maneuver his armor. It COULD work brilliantly, or disastrously. I'd play it safe, and while not keyholing them, use cover and perhaps cover armor arcs, and slowly keep pace with my infantry. I'd hope to have my Pz sitting still when Bil's armor pops out, this can make all the difference, especially if it's a stuart and the Pz hits, because it'll most likely be a 1 shot kill in that case. Any aggressive maneuver is risky and with 2 Pz IV's I just dont see it as worth the chance. At this point I'd really try to force Bil to come to me. Nothing wrong with this approach, as long as you are still dictating terms. That is forcing or getting Bil to move units where you are prepared for them. Like the 2 Pz iv's sitting as a reception for any tank rolling forward from Bil. It is just much harder to do that in many situations over being the aggressor where less things require any impact as to what your opponent does. Playing passive can require more skill since you must antipate the enemy intentions correctly, or you will find yourself out of place with no ability to adjust. The aggressor dictates terms generally and can sometimes withdrawl when things turn ugly. But for GaJ, he will have to get it right the first time no matter what he does or this thing is over. So we wait and see. Juus get the game out to the rest of us, that is what I am really waiting for, more toys to play with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 How good/experienced are GAJ's tank crews compared to Bil. Is it known? I might be inclined to mass my panzer's together as Bil has his somewhat spread out and maybe get a 2-1 advantage at some point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan8325 Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Even if GaJ loses his tanks, Bil doesn't have artillery and could still be in a bind attacking the back sides of hills without exposing his tanks to shreck fire. GaJ in the mean time has plenty (i think) of medium mortars to attrite Bil's infantry. I wouldn't count GaJ out even if his tanks are lost. It would still be a huge blow though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 25, 2013 Author Share Posted March 25, 2013 Okay, GaJ is moving UP! Tanks on the plateau!?!? That sounds like a recipe for disaster! It's the old, "If I can see everyone, they can all see me" problem. I hope, for his sake, that the plateau is not as exposed as it seems to be. Bil has done an exemplary job of utilizing every scrap of intel. I've never been a point counter type, but now I can see how devastatingly effective it can be. He's sussed out a LOT of information from just a few scraps of data. Ooh, it's about to get interesting! Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanonier Reichmann Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I reckon it's pretty much all over bar the shouting for GaJ. Bill has far superior intelligence on where his opponents forces are located whereas GaJ is still groping around in the fog, having no idea of where the hammer blow will fall. Regards KR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 It depends on how early GaJ can see what is going on. He still has two TRPs essentially straddling Bil's line of advance and I'm guessing, given his usage to date, plenty of off-board ammo. At the least, it might buy GaJ time to extract himself and at the best do some serious damage to Bil's forces as he seems to be throwing a lot that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 That Sherman sitting on the crest is giving me the willies. Either its going to be holed first shot by a PzIV or its going to hole the PzIV while its moving up before he even spots it. I hate 'wild west quickdraw shootouts'. The results are as random as staking the outcome of a battle on a coin toss. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herr_oberst Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Yup, given the sound contacts that Bill scored in the last turn or so, I'd expect at least one of his Shermans to be very interested in a particular area of the map. Quick draw indeed. I admit that I'm quite rusty, but what are the odds, Sherman vs MkIV, given a 'heads-up, both shooting' meeting at those ranges, respective guns against opponents armor? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Yup, given the sound contacts that Bill scored in the last turn or so, I'd expect at least one of his Shermans to be very interested in a particular area of the map. Quick draw indeed. I admit that I'm quite rusty, but what are the odds, Sherman vs MkIV, given a 'heads-up, both shooting' meeting at those ranges, respective guns against opponents armor? On flat, level ground, it's a near even match. The PzIV's higher velocity gun gives better odds of a first round hit, but that first round has a fair chance of spanging off the sherman's glacis. The Sherman's fast turret might mean it gets the first shot off first, and if it hits, it'll probably penetrate wherever it hits. With hull down situations, the sherman's turret armour isn't as good as its hull armour, and its silhouette isn't as small as the IVs turret-only view. A PzIV shooting at a hull down sherman has more chance than a sherman shooting at a hull-down PzIV. For the Sherman, being hull down at close range is possibly a disadvantage, since the 75/L48 is going to hit first time (if stationary), and hit the turret, which it will penetrate, and probably cause mission-critical casualties. Moving PzIVs together into the FoF of a hull down Sherman at 500m is probably a recipe for losing both in a minute for no US loss. If GaJ can figure good hull down positions for his armour to halt in, he's probably got the advantage, but if the Sherman spots them first, it's dead risky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I think Bil's attack on his right isn't going to bag him much for the forces he has invested and he might lose a tank or two in the process. I think his best bet would have been to concentrate as much in the center as possible and then sweep into the flank and rear of the mass of infantry GaJ has on the left. He might lose a tank or two there as well, but he would have a lot more to show for it. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I have to agree Emrys, when Bil mentioned he was detaching that force and the size of the detachment I couldn't help wondering what he was doing. I guess perhaps I would have done the same, but it seems crazy considering he doesn't know what's out there and it significantly weakens his main force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Yeah, as it stands, a push in the centre could pay dividends, but when Bil initiated his plan he still didn't know where GaJ's armour was and I think suspected that it was covering the far 'exit' from the centre valley. He did know that GaJ was weaker on Bil's right and I guess by going right Bil would avoid being flanked himself by keeping enough force in the centre and left. If he does take the ground on his right (without great losses - I suppose Bil committed a lot in order to be sure to outnumber GaJ), he then only has to hold for a win in terms of points. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I think Bil's assumption was that the German force approaching on his right flank is larger than in fact it is. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 If he does take the ground on his right, he then only has to hold for a win in terms of points. Do we know that? I mean, how are the points distributed in this game VLs vs. losses inflicted? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForwardObserver Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I think Bil's attack on his right isn't going to bag him much for the forces he has invested and he might lose a tank or two in the process. I think his best bet would have been to concentrate as much in the center as possible and then sweep into the flank and rear of the mass of infantry GaJ has on the left. He might lose a tank or two there as well, but he would have a lot more to show for it. He couldn't have mass and security at the same time. The flanking maneuver you (and myself, see one of my previous posts) foresee would be a game winner, but there was as well the risk of stumbling blindly into the force GaJ is moving across the map. Putting myself in his boots, I fully understand his concern for being certainty on GaJ positions, and I think he got that decision just about right. Now he's learnt what he was ignorant of, and he's got the means to shift troops around quickly. His pursuit of security has already yielded something to him: he's got quite a good hold on GaJ armour. As other posters have discussed already, that match up will play on the lap of the one who gets to the best position first. I don't have such a clear hold on GaJ's position. Bil's AAR is extremely comprehensive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Do we know that? I mean, how are the points distributed in this game VLs vs. losses inflicted? Yeah, uncertain. I had edited my post straight after to reflect this. I still think Bil's decision at the time was the best one given the intel. I'm pretty sure he thought (correctly) that GaJ's main force was on his left and so he was striking against a diversion force on his right (turn 13 on page 11). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 I think Bil's assumption was that the German force approaching on his right flank is larger than in fact it is. In Bil's own words: "I think his [GaJ's] right side force is a DIVERSION". How big he thought the diversion was is another question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Do we know that? I mean, how are the points distributed in this game VLs vs. losses inflicted? Michael If it works like in CMBN, in meeting engagements the VLs are worth 400 points and points for units destroyed are worth 600. I'm not exactly sure how the game awards the points for units destroyed, however. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 25, 2013 Share Posted March 25, 2013 Do we know that? I mean, how are the points distributed in this game VLs vs. losses inflicted? Michael ME QBs split the VPs 40% for the VLs (divided up between the locations, I assume, but have no idea in what proportion) and 60% for casualties inflicted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted March 27, 2013 Author Share Posted March 27, 2013 Reading Bil's posts, he seems to have a great grasp of what's happening. However, the crux will be if he can DO anything with that knowledge! He (to me) correctly sussed that GaJ is stalled out with his main force and that GaJ's tanks are milling about without a clear plan. (Harsh, that, but essentially correct.) By the time GaJ gets his tanks in a shooting position on his left, Bil's Stuart will no longer be easy pickings. They're both sparring. When they decide to close in and slug it out, it will be fast and furious. I'm still waiting for Bil to commit his tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 27, 2013 Share Posted March 27, 2013 I'm still waiting for Bil to commit his tanks. I'm still waiting for him to blast into the flank of that big German force on his left, but it doesn't seem like he's close to that yet. He may well be right too to clear out that force on his right, especially since that is where GaJ is sending his tanks. It wouldn't be nice to get righteously stuck into a knock down drag out fight with the major force and then have the smaller force (but with armor) on your tail. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpratt88 Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 Ok...am I wrong or are Steiner and Kettle giving away information in a discrete manner??? It is so irritating...why can't some people just be quiet...I did notice Kettle gave an apology which is good but then it seems that Steiner followed right up with his own assessment... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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