Armor protection

[Albe Pavo]

Hello,

i'm playing the SS campaign in CW module.

In the same turn i lost 1 Konigtiger and 1 Panther (first shot) to Sherman fire: is that realistic?

I mean, both were struck by frontal fire, i thought that they were nearly invulnerable to Sherman frontal fire, but both were penetrated, crew bailed out.

How is this possible?

This is becasue of HEAT ammunitions? Is this realistic?

[George MC]

Firefly? That 17pdr will spoil your day.

[Rocky Balboa]

Also Sherman 76 firing at 500M < can get lucky as well. More specifics are needed ....

[Albe Pavo]

They don't seem Firefly..

I think they are standard american Sherman.. but i need to check.

Standard american Sherman can kill Panthers and Konigtiger?

how does it works the special ammunition system?

[baron Jacquinot]

Hello,

i'm playing the SS campaign in CW module.

In the same turn i lost 1 Konigtiger and 1 Panther (first shot) to Sherman fire: is that realistic?

I mean, both were struck by frontal fire, i thought that they were nearly invulnerable to Sherman frontal fire, but both were penetrated, crew bailed out.

How is this possible?

This is becasue of HEAT ammunitions? Is this realistic?

What SS campaign? I miss something?

[$Pec5]

I have never had a Sherman 75mm destroy either a TigerII or Panther from a front armor shot.

Check Vanir Ausf B's thread on Tiger and Panther hit distribution. He has a cromwell 75mm (not sure, but I think the Britt 75mm had the same armor penetration as the american 75mm). There were a few instances where the Cromwell scored some penetrating hits...although, if I recall correctly, this happened less than 1% of the time.

[Albe Pavo]

What SS campaign? I miss something?

That's the Flaise pocket campaign, mission 3 i think (the one in which you have the crew of Konigtiger going back to the tank with fuel to recover it).

I have never had a Sherman 75mm destroy either a TigerII or Panther from a front armor shot.

Check Vanir Ausf B's thread on Tiger and Panther hit distribution. He has a cromwell 75mm (not sure, but I think the Britt 75mm had the same armor penetration as the american 75mm). There were a few instances where the Cromwell scored some penetrating hits...although, if I recall correctly, this happened less than 1% of the time.

Yes, that's what i think, but my doubt is: what's the efficency of special ammunition? I know that Sherman have a couple of HEAT ammunitions.

I'll check again those Shermans firing at me.

[YankeeDog]

Yes, that's what i think, but my doubt is: what's the efficency of special ammunition? I know that Sherman have a couple of HEAT ammunitions.

I'll check again those Shermans firing at me.

Shermans did not, as a general rule, use HEAT ammunition in WWII and as far as I know CMBN does not model Shermans as carrying HEAT ammunition in any way. In any event, given the level of HEAT warhead technology in WWII, a 75mm HEAT round would not significantly increase penetration over the standard (kinetic) AP ammo that Shermans typically used, except perhaps at extreme ranges.

The Americans did have a "special" AP round for the 76mm Sherman gun. This was a tungsten-cored kinetic penetrator round referred to as HVAP (High Velocity Armor Piercing). HVAP can certainly be dangerous to King Tigers and Panthers frontally, especially at shorter ranges. I don't remember off the top of my head whether 76mm Shermans ever get HVAP in CMBN, though... I know M10s get a few rounds of it depending on date and quality setting, but I'm not sure about Shermans. IIRC, offically, supply of HVAP was restricted to tank destroyer units for most of 1944. But anecdotes indicate some of it found its way into the hands of 76mm Sherman crews anyway.

It's also worth reiterating: Details matter. The Panther especially relies on slope effect for much of its protection, and if the shooter is firing from a position that partially negates the slope effect (ex: firing from higher ground), then the chances of a frontal penetration can be much higher than they would be for a "flat" shot.

[Rokko]

You are talking about the Kampfgruppe Engel campaign which features a mix of units mostly from 2nd Panzer-Division with a platoon of mechanized Waffen-SS Grenadiers later on

My guess would be they werent normal Shermans but either Fireflies or M10s with the 17pdr.

That or the shots came from an unfavourable angle (hitting the top armor e.g.)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Without knowing if they were Sherman 75s, 76s or Fireflys there is no way of telling what happened. Sherman 76s can penetrate the Panther and KT ("Porsche" turret) out to at least 500m, but not reliably (the mantlets are rounded).

[eniced73]

Hello,

i'm playing the SS campaign in CW module.

In the same turn i lost 1 Konigtiger and 1 Panther (first shot) to Sherman fire: is that realistic?

I mean, both were struck by frontal fire, i thought that they were nearly invulnerable to Sherman frontal fire, but both were penetrated, crew bailed out.

How is this possible?

This is becasue of HEAT ammunitions? Is this realistic?

Plain and simple---This is a game!! Do not try to sit back and question what is realistic and what is not. Number one rule....Do not get hit. Bottom line. It does not matter what is shooting at you. I have just played a turn where I pummeled a Panther with three Sherm 75 AP shells on the side armor from less than 100m and the Panther just backed out of site. Take it as luck.

Once you start questioning about is this or that realistic the GAME will become very frustrating to you. Legit concerns like the last MG tweak are good to bring up but things like this are just better left to bad luck.

[JasonC]

The US 76mm with plain APC can penetrate the Panther turret front to about 400 meters, reliably. From that distance to about 1000 meters it is in shatter gap territory, where theoretically the round has enough oomph to penetrate but in practice the shell often broke up before it could do so. Say in the 400-600 meter window, some should be getting in,m beyond that they should mostly be "shell broke up" results, but an occasional sticky hit at 800 meters wouldn't be unbelievable.

That's with plain AP - with 76mm APCR, everything would be going in out to medium range or longer (1 km, 1.2 km, no probblem). The US 76mm with APCR is an extremely dangerous weapon, in general.

Panthers also have a shot trap under the gun mantle "chin", and a hit at that vulnerable point could easily KO the tanks to much longer ranges. Or even let plain 75mm APHE get in, more rarely.

The Panther is vulnerable in the side and rear aspects to every major allied AT weapon, to medium range or longer.

The front hull would only be vulnerable to British 17 pdr and that only fairly close or lower quality plates (though the last were pretty common in the late war). But basically a 17 pdr is a hammer vs just about anything.

The King Tiger sides are proof against plain 75mm down to point blanlk range, but US 76mm can penetrate them with plain APC.

The King Tiger front is another story altogether. The US 76mm should not be able to hurt that aspect with plain AP. With APCR, maybe, on a good day, and close. Similar story for the 17 pdr.

As for HEAT, the item that can matter for in the Sherman 105mm. 105mm HEAT is a strong AT weapon, strong enough to penetrate the Panther turret front, the Tiger I hull front, or the King Tiger hull or turret sides. It would not penetrate the Panther glacis or the King Tiger front, and usually would fail against the Tiger I turret front as well.

[MikeyD]

Awhile ago Charles coded in the ability of U.S. tanks to get a lucky glancing blow on the bottom of the Panther's rounded gun mantlet, sending the round down into the forward hull ammo locker. It almost NEVER happens. The operative word is 'almost'. I may have heard a rumor that for either the patch or upgrade he may have further tweaked this. Upgraded the chance to slightly higher than one-in-a-million.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The King Tiger front is another story altogether. The US 76mm should not be able to hurt that aspect with plain AP.

US 76mm APCBC can penetrate the front turret. It is 100mm thick and rounded, similar to the Panther gun mantlet. This is against KTs with the "Porsche" turret that are presently in the game. Production turret KTs will be a different story.

As for HEAT, the item that can matter for in the Sherman 105mm. 105mm HEAT is a strong AT weapon, strong enough to penetrate the Panther turret front, the Tiger I hull front, or the King Tiger hull or turret sides. It would not penetrate the Panther glacis or the King Tiger front, and usually would fail against the Tiger I turret front as well.

It actually can penetrate the Panther glacis at long range because the low velocity round will strike at a steeper angle, reducing the effective resistance of the sloped glacis plate. I'm not sure how likely it is, given the inaccuracy of the round, but it's possible.

[Apocal]

Awhile ago Charles coded in the ability of U.S. tanks to get a lucky glancing blow on the bottom of the Panther's rounded gun mantlet, sending the round down into the forward hull ammo locker. It almost NEVER happens. The operative word is 'almost'. I may have heard a rumor that for either the patch or upgrade he may have further tweaked this. Upgraded the chance to slightly higher than one-in-a-million.

I think I've seen it happen once or twice. Sherman 75s taking out Panthers from the from, logged as "penetration" not "opening." It was a RT MP or else I would've been able to confirm it.

[Killkess]

The front hull would only be vulnerable to British 17 pdr and that only fairly close or lower quality plates (though the last were pretty common in the late war).

Discussions about german plate quality come up every now and then mostly without conclusive results. What is your source for this statement?

[JasonC]

A thousand previous discussions including here, including Rexford's reports?

E.g.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=30537

[womble]

It actually can penetrate the Panther glacis at long range because the low velocity round will strike at a steeper angle...

By about half a degree steeper, yes. Not really enough to turn "can't, and won't ever penetrate" into a notable chance of going through.

The trig was done in a thread that was talking about rounds passing entirely under the length of a tank at long range. The rate of descent per meter travelled is very small, especially for high velocity weapons like the 76mm. If the shooter was noticeably above the target, the glacis slope might be negated to some extent, certainly.

I think I've seen it happen once or twice. Sherman 75s taking out Panthers from the from, logged as "penetration" not "opening." It was a RT MP or else I would've been able to confirm it.

The "shot trap" hits do get marked as penetrations, to the "Top Front", IIRC. I've seen it happen twice, once by a 57mm ATG and once by a Sherman, though I can't recall whether the Sherman was a 76 or not, though it's not really relevant; both would penetrate from the ricochet. Both times it was the first hit on any Panther in the given scenario.

[Vanir Ausf B]

By about half a degree steeper, yes. Not really enough to turn "can't, and won't ever penetrate" into a notable chance of going through.

The trig was done in a thread that was talking about rounds passing entirely under the length of a tank at long range. The rate of descent per meter travelled is very small, especially for high velocity weapons like the 76mm. If the shooter was noticeably above the target, the glacis slope might be negated to some extent, certainly.

Keep in mind that HEAT does not lose penetration at range, and has lower slope effects than AP or even APCBC (IIRC).

Panther glacis plate resists HEAT equal to 139.5mm @ 0° -- 80mm/cos(55°). This assumes the plate is high quality, which will not always be the case with Panther G. The performance of US 105mm HEAT is debatable, and was debated at great length way back in the CMBO days. I will use the numbers out of World War II Ballistics: Armor and Gunnery, which gives penetration of 128mm @ 0°. This represents the amount of armor resistance at which the round has a 50% of full penetration. Using the 0° penetration/0° armor equivalent ratio we get .92 (128/139.5), which yields a chance of penetration of 2% :eek:

However, at 1000m a 105mm round fired at muzzle velocity of 381 mps will hit at a descending angle of 2.27°. This reduces the Panther glacis resistance to 132mm @ 0° equivalent which results in a ratio of .97. That bumps our chance of penetration up to 23%. I wouldn't want to have the outcome of a battle rest on that shot, but I would say the angle of decent certainly does make a significant difference.

By way of comparison, US 76mm APCBC penetrates 106mm RHA at 1000m, descending at an angle of .5°.

Granted, the game may use different numbers for the 105mm. OTOH, flawed Panther plate may resist much lower than 132mm. How the game models flawed armor is unknown. Without the handy CMx1-style stats screen everything has to be laboriously tested.

[womble]

However, at 1000m a 105mm round fired at muzzle velocity of 381 mps will hit at a descending angle of 2.27°.

At what range? I forget if that was specified. At, let's say 500m (and expecting hits from HEAT at further than that is, IME, optimistic to say the least) my calculations give an angle of descent of just less than half a degree, neglecting windage.

t = 500/381 = 1.3s

But the shell is lofted above the barrel line, so is only accelerating downwards after apogee at the half way point, so that's the last 0.65s of its flight.

s = a x t^2 / 2

= 9.8 x 0.65^2 /2

= 2.11m

So the triangle has opposite of 2.11m and adjacent of 250m, meaning

tan^-1 theta = 2.11/250 --> 0.48 degrees.

Happy to accept correction of rusty trig.

If I understand your armour calculation correctly, and my trajectory isn't missing something, that makes the RHA0-equivalent = 80/cos(54.52) = 137.8mm, making the ratio 128/137.8 = 0.929 (vs the 0.917 of your ratio, with the extra precision to show the difference). I don't have the pen tables: what does that do to the chance of penetration?

[Vanir Ausf B]

At what range? I forget if that was specified.

1000 meters. It's in the part you quoted.

My trig is worse than yours, so I won't even try to judge it. But I used different formula that takes into account the ballistic coefficient of the specific round. I can type it all out later if you want.

[akd]

Keep in mind that HEAT does not lose penetration at range, and has lower slope effects than AP or even APCBC (IIRC).

Fired from a rifled barrel, HEAT would actually increase in penetration with range.

[womble]

1000 meters. It's in the part you quoted.

Gah! So it is. Damn my eyes. I've never seen a HEAT round hit at that sort of range. Haven't seen many fired at that sort of range, either, to be fair...

My trig is worse than yours, so I won't even try to judge it. But I used different formula that takes into account the ballistic coefficient of the specific round. I can type it all out later if you want.

[shrug]

2 and a bit degrees sounds more like it for a 1km shot, to be sure.

s = 9.8 x 1.3^2 /2 = 8m drop from apogee

so the tangent over 500m would be 8/500 --> nearly 1 degree without drag... So at that range, the drag could well account for the extra degree and a quarter; I'll believe that. Still going to be lucky to get a hit at that range, though, which probably cancels out the increase in penetration chance