Fenris Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Are squad marching formations on the radar at all? I (very vaguely) remember it being talked about a long time ago and I think the answer was no. When I saw the larger Italian squads and more open terrain it came to mind again. I'm talking about getting around sections running in a congo line when they move and getting them into say line abreast, spread out more/less etc etc. Do people just split squads to achieve this or does is the visual representation for infantry just that and casualties are calculated irrespective of how they look on the screen? eg a mortar round landing on a bunched up line of guys as opposed to them spread out a bit more. Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If you chop up their routes into sections the squads will form up and spread out at each waypoint. And/or you can divide them into teams to get some spread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 But from what I read the Italians can't be split. I don't know if that's all or just some. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Not even King Solomon could suggest a way to split the Italians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 half casualties, half not. Problem solved 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixxkiller Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 They split just fine, they did go 1-1 during the war. But you cannot split Italian forces in CNFI. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 half casualties, half not. Problem solved ............. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 half casualties, half not. Problem solved LOL. Yes, really. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 You do have some influence over positioning as you're placing movement waypoints. You use the rotate tool and the positions of the units' action squares will light up to show where each group is going to fall. So you can rotate so they'll be in line along a road, or rotate so they'll be abrest along a crestline. Download the CMSF demo and practice moving and positioning Syrians, who can't be split either for much the same reasons. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 ...rotate tool... Missed this one. How do you get it working for you? The way the move orders seem to randomly have your squad's teams end up has always been frustrating. Edit: searched the BN manual for "rotate" and nothing relating to the positioning of a squad's component teams came up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Could he have meant "Face" instead of "Rotate"? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I'm hoping it's an undocumented, but longed for, feature. Maybe new in FI ??? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Could he have meant "Face" instead of "Rotate"? Michael If he did, then he's under a misapprehension that Face produces some visible indication of where the teams will end up. Or I just can't see it because it's a pale green highlight... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If he did, then he's under a misapprehension that Face produces some visible indication of where the teams will end up. Or I just can't see it because it's a pale green highlight... Yes; the Face command does show the exact action spot destination of individual teams via the terrain highlighting. Unfortunately, as you note, this terrain highlighting is sometimes difficult to see, especially in bright lighting conditions. It's actually not pale green, though. The highlighting is red for one square, and yellow for the second square (and third, if applicable). Steve has stated in the past that they're aware of this issue, and hope to fix at some point. Apparently, it was an unintended negative side effect to an improvement in the lighting engine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 Yes; the Face command does show the exact action spot destination of individual teams via the terrain highlighting. Unfortunately, as you note, this terrain highlighting is sometimes difficult to see, especially in bright lighting conditions. It's actually not pale green, though. The highlighting is red for one square, and yellow for the second square (and third, if applicable). On dirt, I can see two squares, one probably red, one probably yellow, which sort of rotate around the waypoint (which is where the third team of the US armoured infantry squad I'm testing with would be). It's really not obvious which team goes to which square, though, and since Facing is important to the TacAI's decisions about where to position each man in a given AS, it stands a fair chance of having to point the troops the wrong way to get the team alignment you want, and them having their asses hanging in the wind. Steve has stated in the past that they're aware of this issue, and hope to fix at some point. Apparently, it was an unintended negative side effect to an improvement in the lighting engine. Heh. Doesn't much bother me, as I pretty much always split my squads, and if they're not, I don't really care what orientation they take (or I'd split 'em). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 True that the color highlighting gives you no indication of which team in the squad is going to end up on which action square, just the 2-3 action squares the squad as a whole is going to occupy. Depending on the specific squad type and situation, this can be pretty much insignificant, or it can be extremely important. But like you I generally split my squads as well anytime exact action spot placement is important, so at least currently this isn't a big deal to me. FWIW, while it's certainly not a game-killer for me, I don't agree with the decision to make Italian squads unsplittable. I didn't like this design choice with the Syrians in CMSF, and I don't like it with CMFI now. While I understand the logic behind this design choice, I agree with others that it goes to far, and excessively restricts how you can deploy squad infantry. For example, this prevents you from putting small team just one or two action spots ahead of the bulk of the squad as a point or forward OP, which is a perfectly reasonable tactical action, even in the case of Italian WWII infantry squads or modern Syrian infantry squads. I find it hard to believe that a 10-man Italian squad with even a bare modicum of training would always crest a rise or turn a blind corner en masse; certainly a small team would scout move just a little ahead of the main body in these situations, even if by only by 2-3 action squares (in CM terms). IMHO, some sort of heavier morale and/or C2 penalties for split teams in the case of nationalities whose tactical doctrine limits small-unit flexibility and initiative would be more appropriate. This would probably would take more coding and testing time to get right, but for me this would be a feature worth waiting for. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 FWIW, while it's certainly not a game-killer for me, I don't agree with the decision to make Italian squads unsplittable. If I'm not mistaken, one can divide the Italian 20 man squads into two 10 man 'sections'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 If I'm not mistaken, one can divide the Italian 20 man squads into two 10 man 'sections'. Semantics aside, a 10-man infantry unit is equivalent in size to U.S., British, and German squads currently in the game, and is larger than any unsplittable infantry unit currently in CMBN. I don't agree with the design decision that if an Italian "Squad", composed of 2 x 10 man "sections" and a 5-man "HQ Unit" wants to send a team 10m ahead of the main body to peek over a crest and see what's on the other side, they have to either (a) send a large group of 10 men to do a job that 2 men could probably handle easily, or ( send the 5 men HQ unit, which may put the Squad leader unnecessarily at risk. Now, given training and doctrine, I could understand levying very heavy morale and C2 penalties on an Italian scout team that moves more than, say, 3 action spots away from its parent formation. But I think disallowing split teams entirely is a bit of a procrustean solution. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Now, given training and doctrine, I could understand levying very heavy morale and C2 penalties on an Italian scout team that moves more than, say, 3 action spots away from its parent formation. I'm thinking that would be a change to the morale model, as I don't believe any such morale penalty applies at the moment, so the hooks for putting it in would have to be created. Of course, v2 might be a great time for such engineering adjustments! But I think disallowing split teams entirely is a bit of a procrustean solution. Gotta agree there. FIBUA/MOUT will be (even more of) a slaughterhouse with packing 10 bodies into any building spot. I wonder whether there's any option to disallow some of the Admin commands, so that a 10 man section can a) only ever split off a Scout team or Split Squads, and only do so if there are 7 (?) or more men left. Further, I wonder if there's a way of making Italian sections' constituent teams have a "best leadership" of -2. If there aren't any "Asst" specialists in the section, that would, I think, generally mean that any split team would have -2 leadership, which makes the team quite brittle. BTW. "Procrustean". Great word. Hat off. Even if it doesn't mean what either of us think it does (haven't looked it up yet), it's a good word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tank Hunter Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 BTW. "Procrustean". Great word. Hat off. Even if it doesn't mean what either of us think it does (haven't looked it up yet), it's a good word. 1846 in figurative sense of "aiming to produce conformity by arbitrary means," from Procrustes (1583), mythical robber of Attica who seized travelers, tied them to his bed, and either stretched their limbs or lopped of their legs to make them fit it. The name is Gk. Prokroustes "one who stretches," from EXPANDprokrouein "to beat out, stretch out," from pro- "before" + krouein "to strike." So BF stop stretching us so we can fit in you bed! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Would be nice to have an orders function button to set infantry squad/team and tank platoon formations. Could be something as simple as setting a group formation to wedge, echelon (left amd right), line or march column. Could work for larger formations like platoons and companies. Luke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Procrustean, FTW! Now, be honest: how long has that thesaurus sat open to that page next to your monitor while you just waited to spring that word out into a thread? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Procrustean, FTW! Now, be honest: how long has that thesaurus sat open to that page next to your monitor while you just waited to spring that word out into a thread? Glad you liked it. In addition to the military/wargame interest, I'm a bit of a mythology geek. I used to be a member of a theater company that produced primarily classical Greek drama, in fact. Procrustean Bed, Sisyphean Task, Oedipal Complex, I'm full of mythology references... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I used to be a member of a theater company that produced primarily classical Greek drama, in fact. Procrustean Bed, Sisyphean Task, Oedipal Complex, I'm full of mythology references... Μπράβο!, Σκύλος. Είστε ο καλύτερος. (First to translate wins a Kindle Fire) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Μπράβο!, Σκύλος. Είστε ο καλύτερος. (First to translate wins a Kindle Fire) bravo dog you're the best? :confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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