Sgt.Squarehead

He's British. Which doesn't preclude him from being a bit Bolshy, you know.

Michael

Hey everyone,
I've attached a link to a QB map I am working on for Black Sea.  It is for company sized urban infantry battles.  Also there is a link to a google drive folder that I will update as I go along.  Should make it easy for anyone to see how its going, and avoid the file upload size limits of the forums.   Upon completion of this I would like to try my hand at AI plans to make this into a scenario.
So far, I have mostly completed the construction of the 2 main objectives and some of the areas surrounding them  The buildings have all of their interior connections so infantry can make their way through as needed.  I have taken some creative privilege with the objective buildings and a few other things so far.  Mainly with placement of the government center to be more inline with the police station towards the middle between the two deployment zones.  The other was the omission of the large building on the eastern side of the map in the attached image.  This is a huge basketball court complex I just can't see a reason to include.   I will either sub it out with a smaller building or turn it into some wooded terrain.   If anyone has other ideas on that I am open to them. 
Also made it to changing some of the elevations before placing buildings, had to fidget with it a little after placement, but so far it looks good and at least is similar to how the land lays in real life. 
My plan for the middle of the map, where it gets quite congested, is to omit a few of those buildings, creating some extra alley ways for maneuver.  Maybe creating groups of 2 or 3 buildings with some room in between.  Both sides will have covered approaches to one of the objectives via wooded areas.  I'm hoping this creates a need for the middle to be fought over in H2H if someone were to give that a go.
Deployment zones have been placed north and south.  This was mostly just me checking out placing them. Will probably move them to the NE and SW corners, mostly to force the issue of controlling the middle for direct approach to the objective furthest from either sides deployment zone.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1scLEy00dDlNoxBER9JTOUtDrVDe9xala
Thanks to everyone who gave pointers and links to useful reference materials, there is so much out there it is almost overload.  I'm gonna keep truckin on this.

Send me an email with a list the CM Games you own and I will match up a scen or QB map to study.  I would suggest you do the same with as many scen designers as you can.  You'll see a lot of styles and techniques.... It is an art form.    markDOTezra3591ATgmailDOTcom

Knocking out one wall and having a door on the abutting wall is a technique that I only use when creating T or L shaped buildings because the doors generally don't align. Otherwise I always try to put doors in both walls where I want troops to move internally through complex buildings because it just looks better.

Agreed it's an excellent AAR. Interesting to see how players tackle this one.
I reworked this one for CMSF2 bit larger map, rejigged BLUEFOR OOB and totally revamped RED AI plan using triggers. So might be worth considering keeping your powder dry for the revised one?

Wet blanket alert.
I think the remark Steve made was more a general comment on how far computing capabilities have come. There are some pretty powerful CPU's out there that are pretty affordable, as well as some workstation CPU's that have insane processing power. (64 cores!) When Shock Force 1 came out, I think the standard CPU was still the Pentium line. Even if it was past Pentium, the advancement in processor power in the past 10 years has been substantial. 
Further, I'm likely in the minority here who is not looking forward to a possible CMx3. The reason is simple. CMx3 will be a restart. Just like CMx2 was a restart from CMx1. Imagine it taking another 5-10 years just to get back to Normandy, let alone the other theaters of WWII. There are so many other conflicts CM could do as well, but those conflicts are only profitable/practical after the big selling theaters are made (Normandy). 
Personally, I would rather see more improvements made to the CMx2 engine as well as more games/modules covering more of the Eastern Front in WWII as well as other historical conflicts, such as Korea 1950 to name one of many. Doing those 2 things alone would likely take another 5 or so years. I would rather wait 5 years on the current engine than wait 10+ years just to get back to the same theaters we already have but in a new engine. 

-You Soviets shoot at our German planes!
-But... They bomb our airfields!
-It is whataboutism! We discuss how you shoot at German planes!

No - one shot was enough from a 125mm T72 main gun against the front of a building that had a US light cavalry dismount element behind the building to suppress them in a CMBS scenario I'm working on. It did not destroy the building or in fact the wall it struck.
As to the ammunition levels - yes it is an obvious constraint that you have to work around but even a single tank in WW2 titles gives you a sh1t tin of ammunition which is more than enough to target briefly against a number of buildings to achieve this effect. This is less so in modern titles but things like ATGMs and GMGs can be employed.
If buildings are PRESERVE objectives then don't destroy the building - generally knocking a single wall over will still award about 75% of the VPs allocated to that structure, I did a test on it and I think the results lurk in a CMSF thread somewhere. I'd be wary of the tendency to get over excited about not striking PRESERVE objectives in game (RL of course is very different). It is like saying 'I have to kill every single enemy dude because they are a DESTROY objective. In reality you know you only have to drop the hammer on enough of them to rack sufficient points up, so with PRESERVE objectives the converse applies - so long as you don't do a Dresden on them, you will still get some of those points. Your decision is then to do a cost benefit analysis on it to drive your COA.

But it would be as dull as ditch water - there was a thread somewhere else on this forum about adding elite units about a year ago which got stopped dead in its tracks when I pointed out that once they got all of these lovely Gucci units how would they use them in the game? I went on to point out that the missions involving these underwater knife fighting ninja types would be rinse and repeat affairs - how many airfield raids can you do before you get bored rigid? Even more constricting is the absence of aircraft in CM to actually blow up on the ground. I appreciate that BFC could add these later on down the track but you're still looking at:
Sneak onto an airfield, blow sh1t up and run away. Race onto an airfield in a couple of jeeps, brass sh1t up and run away. Now I appreciate there is more to SAS and LRDG ops than airfield raids, but I just don't think they make interesting CM missions because it is essentially:
Avoid getting spotted before getting to the target/the target arrival. Blaze away for a couple of minutes to whack the target. Exfiltrate without getting caught/killed. I know it is a bit rich saying that because I did the Operation Neptune Spear scenario in CMSF which worked on exactly that premise and yes people seemed to have enjoyed it but I think it worked for three reasons:
Not many people were cranking out CMSF content at the time. The Osama Bin Laden thing. There weren't too many good scenarios of that type for the game. I have recently looked at doing an SAS Northern Europe campaign but then I read some SAS war diaries for one of those operations and it was depressingly uninspiring … brass up some rear echelon types in a village, ambush a convoy, blow something up, gather intelligence on a target and call in an airstrike. Ultimately followed by avoid getting captured in a security sweep. When you consider that they'd insert as a formed body and then split into teams of four dudes with each team going to a defined and dispersed geographical area then each individual mission hinges on those four dudes surviving. That is difficult to pull off in CM scenario design and make the thing both playable and enjoyable because a team only has to be spotted by an SMG toting German type and its mission over.

Just checked .50cal in CM:SF1.....It actually demolishes light buildings before having serious suppressive effect on teams positioned on their far side.
I'm actually a bit surprised by that.....Going to repeat the test in CM:A & CM:BS now.

Ok - I've actually just run a quick test on this in CMFI because that was the quickest test range I had to hand:
1 x US Regular M2 HMG crew per lane @ 100m. Each lane contains a single building type as per the table below.
Skulking behind the building in each lane is a German Regular Average motivation Panzergrenadier squad with the exception of the commercial building which had the platoon HQ lurking behind it.
Here are the results of a single turn firing:

Clearly I'm not going to plan the next shot to Mars on this data, and my reading of the suppression bar levels is based on a lot of squinting because of their small size, but the reasonable deduction seems to be:
Firing HMGs at buildings from a range of 100m suppresses troops behind them.
 
 

I feel much the same, I'm still ignoring the demo, just itching for the full editor. 
PS - Unless/until the dismounted ammo dump thing is resolved I feel CM:SF1 will still have some novelty value, just for the unusual TOEs you can create with crew-swapping.....Doubt I'll write anything for it though, it's a pain to balance the VPs and the new game will just be better.
However the fact remains CM:SF2 won't actually meet it's promise of running all CM:SF1 scenarios OOTB until they do sort the dismounted ammo dump issue! 

Two reinforced companies, 320mx320m of urban Mosul, an hour & a half to clear it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wfjnp2xy78c1e2g/Ashsh al-Dababir.btt?dl=0
Give it your best shot. 
 

This, exactly.  +1 

you can say that again...welcome to hell.

Very cool urban battle.  
 
 
 
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Now this was one serious mother trucker, good job arty took care of it rather than a humvee
 

Still busy destroying your map @Sgt.Squarehead.  Nice scenario. 

Finally finished this one with a tactical victory.  What an epic MOUT Battle!!!  Well done.  It does take some time and patience to fight it correctly (just like RL).
The sniper dude. 

AAR

I will also toss in that I really enjoyed this...even though I suffered a tactical defeat.  Even though I captured the OBVIOUS geographic objectives I.......SPOILER ALERT..........
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
 
 
 
 
 
Missed all the other mission/point objectives.  AND of course I blundered into too many IEDs and took to many casualties.  You know something like this.."Hey Abdul take your squad over there and check out that abandoned taxi..."  "Sure Mohamed".....BOOOOOMMM... 
Yea, I was kinda stupid like that.  After a short period of time I may revist this...try and be a LITTLE more patient and not rush into things.
Overall, I have to say this is one of the best MOUT maps I have played on CMSF, and I know there are some darn fine ones out there, so BIG kudos for the map.
The AI is also pretty tough, although to be fair, the defenders just have to defend...but they use those #%*#^$ IEDs to great effect on numbskull commanders like yours truly.
Someday, when CMSF2 shows up (fingers crossed) I would love to see this scenario ported over to the new engine...not sure how IEDs and VBIEDs may work, but I bet the new AI features would be awesome.
Thanks very much for this..BZ from me!

And the same guys who cleared up parts of Fallujah ... kind of ironic that you're using a modified Ramadi map to do Mosul don't you think ...
A couple of other quotes from that article to note:
'There were no advisers from the American-led coalition in sight' (just like I said).
'A small team, with mine-resistant ambush-protected vehicles, was monitoring the fight from Yarmouk' (use of MRAPs ... just like I said).
 
 

A number of revamped CMSF2 scenario briefings did get condensed to be more concise. I'm one of those who get intimidated by 'wall of text' orders, myself. Other orders got expanded. The purpose of orders is to differentiate the scenario from a QB. 'You're on one side of the map and the enemy is on the other side' is insufficient info.
About scenario times. I've got an old habit of adding 5 min to the runtime... then another 5 min... then adding variable extra on top of that. An added 5-10 min rarely affects the battle but helps the initial approach-to-contact feel less burdensome. Sometimes a scenario needs the opposite. Two hour+ battles where AI movement orders run out after 15 minute. You either have to shorten the runtime or expand the AI orders or both.
There's also cleaning up maps. Its easy to make maps a bit more convincing. For first generation basegame CMSF1 , a standard hadn't been created to measure your work against. Nobody had made a game engine 2 map before! Map makers can work wonders but you first need examples of what a good map should  look like to aspire to.
Discussion about ideal scenario design can sound a bit theoretical, more players should be playing in the editor (which is fun, BTW). Try your hand at creating decent AI orders sets, try constructing your theoretical 'ideal' scenario. Then share the results with the community. You might come to see a difference between an 'ideal' scenario and 'achievable' scenarios

The expression 'slow-motion train-wreck' would be fairly apt IMHO:
https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2018/11/taliban-routs-commando-company-in-one-of-afghanistans-most-secure-rural-districts.php
Beginning to wonder if the planned 'Exit Strategy' might not depend on helicopters & the embassy roof. 

Two reinforced companies, 320mx320m of urban Mosul, an hour & a half to clear it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wfjnp2xy78c1e2g/Ashsh al-Dababir.btt?dl=0
Give it your best shot. 
 

Two reinforced companies, 320mx320m of urban Mosul, an hour & a half to clear it:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wfjnp2xy78c1e2g/Ashsh al-Dababir.btt?dl=0
Give it your best shot.