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Bulletpoint

AT gun firing back despite full suppression. Intended?

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Posted (edited)

In a PBEM game I noticed my AT gun being fully suppressed and "pinned", yet turning the gun around and firing accurately at the enemy AFV, taking it out. Is that the way it's supposed to be? Are AT guns supposed to be impossible to suppress?

Gun: US 57mm, in a light wood tile with a single pine tree.

Crew: regular, +0 soft factors (but -2 leadership). Rattled.

Distance: 431m

 

Edited by Bulletpoint

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3 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I'd certainly be miffed if I was on the other end of their fire.

Yeah I feel a bit sorry for my opponent too. I guess he believed his Flakvierling would at least suppress my AT gun...

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As far as I know, AT guns are treated a bit special by the game. Currently it is not possible for a crew to "bail out" of their gun when under fire and then remount it at a later time. To counter this disadvantage, the crews are given a slight bonus to resisting suppression, keeping them active and fighting longer than you would normally think. 

In the case of your battle, had your AT crew suffered any casualties yet? Other than his Flakvierling, was anything else firing at your crew? If the answer to both those questions is no, then it seems perfectly reasonable to me that your crew would return fire and knock out the threat facing them.

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3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

In a PBEM game I noticed my AT gun being fully suppressed and "pinned", yet turning the gun around and firing accurately at the enemy AFV, taking it out. Is that the way it's supposed to be? Are AT guns supposed to be impossible to suppress?

Gun: US 57mm, in a light wood tile with a single pine tree.

Crew: regular, +0 soft factors (but -2 leadership). Rattled.

Distance: 431m

 

my bet is on the -2 leader. Regular crew experience yet lets them perform sufficiently well.

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3 hours ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

In the case of your battle, had your AT crew suffered any casualties yet? Other than his Flakvierling, was anything else firing at your crew? If the answer to both those questions is no, then it seems perfectly reasonable to me that your crew would return fire and knock out the threat facing them.

Yes, they had just taken casualties from a StuG. Then the Vierling took over and started blasting their position. The gun crew then 'woke up' from suppression, turned the gun around and fired.

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1 hour ago, RockinHarry said:

my bet is on the -2 leader. Regular crew experience yet lets them perform sufficiently well.

Please note that it's a minus 2 leader. The real leader (+0) was killed about 15 seconds earlier.

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58 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Please note that it's a minus 2 leader. The real leader (+0) was killed about 15 seconds earlier.

Ok that´s new information. -2 means minus 2, or what do i´m getting wrong here? :huh: Anyway, a -2 leader is always bad, but can be compensated for with better experience unit stat oftentimes.

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21 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Ok that´s new information. -2 means minus 2, or what do i´m getting wrong here? :huh:

If I understood you right, you said that the minus 2 leader made the gun perform better - shoot back despite being fully suppressed?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

If I understood you right, you said that the minus 2 leader made the gun perform better - shoot back despite being fully suppressed?

ok. Actually the other way round. A -2 leader CAN influence a units performance in various BAD ways, but it likely doesn´t make a regular experience unit behaving like greens or lower in any way.  If a possible die roll from the -2 leader leads to delayed enemy spotting, target acquiring or some drop of morale maybe (this f...d up newbie leader does us no good!), the units experience rating still likely lets them perform sufficiently well. That´s what I meant. But off course this is just from watching and my own interpretations on leader stats. What @Heirloom_Tomato said further above also makes totally sense to me. So it might be a combo of both, or additional factors we don´t know about.

Edited by RockinHarry

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Based on the very limited details you have posted here is what I think happened in your battle; your AT gun spots an enemy StuG and they determine firing at the StuG is a bad idea. I am going to assume a frontal shot with a 57mm AT gun has a low chance of penetration, so better to stay still and make every effort to appear nonthreatening and keep out of harms way. Unfortunately for them, the StuG spots them and fires, killing the team leader and another crew man. Thankfully the StuG finds a new target to aim at and leaves the rest of your crew alone. You don't state the StuG moved away but only that it stopped firing on the AT gun, an important point to keep in mind. Now, a Flakvierling opens fire and begins to send rounds at the AT crew. Remember they are hard wired to stand their ground and stick to their guns because once they run away, there is no coming back. You state in your first post the crew is rattled and not pinned so their only hope for things to not get any worse is to take out the threat facing them. A regular leader would probably say the StuG is still right there, if we open fire, we are dead so keep your heads down boys. But -2 Stevie Screwup forgets all about the StuG, he knows his 57 mm can one hit KO a Flakvierling and if he knocks it out, the suppression he is facing currently goes away. Again, remembering he is hard wired to stick to his gun and not run away, he makes the only right choice in his mind which is to turn and fire at the Flakvierling, attempting to knock it out and making his suppression go away.  Stevie doesn't think ahead to the next turn and what will happen to him when the StuG opens fire again, nope his -2 means he can only think about the here and now and so he makes his decision. As a regular "skills" crew man he has been under fire before, if only briefly, and the adrenaline rush of coming under fire once again and the desire for revenge for his fallen teammates makes him forget all about getting hit himself and focus only on knocking out the threat. It might be the wrong choice in the long run but right here, right now, it is all -2 Stevie can focus on and it works out for him. In his mind it is the right decision because the suppressing fire has been eliminated and for now, he is safe.

That is my take on what happened. You seem to think the outcome should have been different. What do you think should have happened and what evidence do you have to support your reasoning?

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45 minutes ago, Heirloom_Tomato said:

Based on the very limited details you have posted here is what I think happened in your battle; your AT gun spots an enemy StuG and they determine firing at the StuG is a bad idea. I am going to assume a frontal shot with a 57mm AT gun has a low chance of penetration, so better to stay still and make every effort to appear nonthreatening and keep out of harms way. Unfortunately for them, the StuG spots them and fires, killing the team leader and another crew man. Thankfully the StuG finds a new target to aim at and leaves the rest of your crew alone. You don't state the StuG moved away but only that it stopped firing on the AT gun, an important point to keep in mind. Now, a Flakvierling opens fire and begins to send rounds at the AT crew. Remember they are hard wired to stand their ground and stick to their guns because once they run away, there is no coming back. You state in your first post the crew is rattled and not pinned so their only hope for things to not get any worse is to take out the threat facing them. A regular leader would probably say the StuG is still right there, if we open fire, we are dead so keep your heads down boys. But -2 Stevie Screwup forgets all about the StuG, he knows his 57 mm can one hit KO a Flakvierling and if he knocks it out, the suppression he is facing currently goes away. Again, remembering he is hard wired to stick to his gun and not run away, he makes the only right choice in his mind which is to turn and fire at the Flakvierling, attempting to knock it out and making his suppression go away.  Stevie doesn't think ahead to the next turn and what will happen to him when the StuG opens fire again, nope his -2 means he can only think about the here and now and so he makes his decision. As a regular "skills" crew man he has been under fire before, if only briefly, and the adrenaline rush of coming under fire once again and the desire for revenge for his fallen teammates makes him forget all about getting hit himself and focus only on knocking out the threat. It might be the wrong choice in the long run but right here, right now, it is all -2 Stevie can focus on and it works out for him. In his mind it is the right decision because the suppressing fire has been eliminated and for now, he is safe.

That is my take on what happened. You seem to think the outcome should have been different. What do you think should have happened and what evidence do you have to support your reasoning?

In short, I'm just asking: should a fully suppressed and pinned and rattled AT gun be able to spot and engage targets?

if yes, what's the point of suppression?

 

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Its one of those situations where, show me that it happens all the time before I get worked up about it. If you can show it happening at some type of unusual rate, then its something to worry about.

One time is , wow that was cool - move on.

I had a lone survivor on a heavy machine gun, pinned, suppressed and being fired on, manage to return fire and kill at least 30 assaulting troops on his location. The bad part of all that was I was the assaulting side of the situation.

Should it of happened per game mechanics. NO

but it did, it was one of those moments where the game did a unusual thing. (it was a medal of honor moment) it was pretty cool actually.

Has the game ever done it again in the years that have followed, nothing even close.

Move on and drop it unless this is a reoccurring problem.

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Posted (edited)

Just had a search through CM game manual PDFs for 'rattle' &  'rattled' for any official definition of what's going on but oddly ennough it isn't covered.

'Pinned' is a temporary status - so it can recover during a turn .  Also as mentioned with guns BF ties the crew to a gun and in prevents them along with the gun from moving away from the source of their woe  - but it seems not to prevent them operating the gun in do or die self defence. 

Seems you've had a Adam Wakenshaw VC moment -  give em a medal.

Edited by Wicky

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59 minutes ago, Wicky said:

Seems you've had a Adam Wakenshaw VC moment -  give em a medal.

Unfortunately, just like in his case, it will have to be awarded posthumously. My opponent tired of the gunner's conspicuous gallantry and brought up a Panther...

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On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 4:27 PM, Bulletpoint said:

Please note that it's a minus 2 leader. The real leader (+0) was killed about 15 seconds earlier.

Clearly, the new leader was too dumb to realize he should be suppressed.

Edited by General Jack Ripper

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