Tanks and Roads

[A Canadian Cat]

Ah fun stuff. Convoys and group movements are a pain for sure. Until the some day when we have game commands that help here are a couple of additional strategies that I use.

For roads I already gave my thoughts on maintaining traffic flow. What @sburke and @Rinaldi said about trying where possible to limit the number of vehicles following the same road and keeping their spacing generous is important. As @Rinaldi said if you have a lot of vehicles unexpected events can really cause back ups. If you are forced to move a lot of vehicles then getting the most important ones moving first and then give a 30s plus spacing for another group can really help. The only thing I'll add is I never use group move orders for plotting road moves - it adds to the work.

For more open terrain I frequently use group orders. What I usually do is select the group and then select one vehicle whose route I know I want to take. For example if I am sending a platoon of tanks around the left side of a forest I'll pick the right most vehicle in the platoon and plot the move orders around the forest. After plotting the group I have one vehicle set with orders that are exactly like I want. After that I select the other vehicles one at a time and tweak their way points. This lets me increase their spacing across the open fields and pull them all together to pass through the gate etc. Once that's done then I think about timing giving pauses to allow only one vehicle to try to get through that gate at a time and then other pauses so the platoon reaches their final destination at about the same time.

 

[Erwin]

Agreed that is probably the most efficient way to to it and would expect most experienced players to do that.  Same with giving different covered arcs to turreted armor at each waypoint as they move so they are watching in the desired direction.

But, both techniques waste a lot of precious game time to do well - and are not a fun experience (certainly not after you've done it a few dozen times).  

Have maintained for a long time that the CM2 system is rather good as is.  The main improvements that CM2 now needs is to its UI to mitigate the boring time-consuming bits (like the above) so that players can spend more time of the fun tactical decision-making aspects.  But, we will probably have to wait till CM3 to see those sorts of improvements.

[banned]

3 hours ago, Mord said:

Thanks, man! Glad you like them. They sure help when you get one of those really odd angled penetrations. I've been surprised many a time, actually finding stuff I didn't even know happened. Hit decals are one of my favorite additions to the game. Something I am really looking forward to seeing in SF2. On the whole they are such a simple thing but the immersion they bring is through the roof.

 

Mord.

I´ve already spent hours with doing battle damage assesment checking every vehicle on the map and figuring their story or tragic end out is something what really makes fun for me. I know the stock decals already allow to tell the different terminal ballistic effects apart but the colorization really helps, especially with hits from smaller calibres I otherwise wouldn´t find. Also looking forward to see them in SF2.

About the traffic jamming, yeah they´re really can bog you down, once a vehicle starts to turn in order to overtake or accumulates an huge pause timer = hell let loose. I tend to keep big spacing in order to prevent these incidents and juggle with the manual "pause" command around to keep them in order.

When doing group orders for following a road. I wait until all vehicles are alligned, give a group order following the street, with a waypoint at every bend. Then I manually pull the waypoints that are off with the mouse cursor towards the road. Handy feature but only possible if you´re having the newer engine updates (3 or 4 introduced it). Saves me a bit work in comparsion to handing out orders to every single vehicle.

Edited May 31, 2018 by MANoWAR.U51

[MikeyD]

If you experience blocked roads and traffic jams those are real-world difficulties. There's the famous anecdote about General Patton (recounted in the movie) directing road traffic at a blocked intersection himself. A game that doesn't require skill and patience and a learning curve from the player isn't much of a game.

Recently I've gotten back into building AI orders sets. With the V4 engine AI tools I've entertained myself making an AI-controlled taxi drive up and down all of the back roads of a map during gameplay... until someone finally decides to shoot him.

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

those are real-world difficulties.

As are stretcher bearers rescuing WIA and logistic supply trains and food preparation.  But the game doesn't feature those cos they are boring.  Boring bits should be abstracted.  Since this a game, one wants to as much as possible, eliminate the tiresome stuff and allow the player to focus on the fun stuff.

 

5 hours ago, MikeyD said:

A game that doesn't require skill and patience and a learning curve from the player isn't much of a game.

Becoming skilled enuff to master the tactics and game system is what the challenge should be about.  Not mastering a UI that is a PITA.

[Bulletpoint]

One possible solution could be to make it possible to copy the waypoints of vehicle 1 to vehicle 2.

It would work like this:

You have 5 tanks that have to drive in convoy.

1: You click the first tank and give it the right waypoints for the movement path along the road.

2: You then select the second tank, choose a movement command, but then you click on the first tank. Just like when you order infantry to embark on a vehicle.

3: The game now plots a movement for tank 2 to take it to the current locaction of tank 1, and then from there it just uses the movement points of tank 1 that you already plotted. In essence, it copy/pastes the movement location data of tank 1 to tank 2.

4: You select tank 3 and order it to move "on to" tank 2. It copies the series of waypoints just like tank 1. Etc

 

The advantage of this system is that there's no advanced group movement AI or road following code. It literally just copies the already plotted movement points from one vehicle to another, adding with an extra step to make sure vehicle 2 goes to the current location of vehicle 1 before setting out on the path of vehicle 1. 

 

[Warts 'n' all]

This sounds like a nice idea. Although one that might be easier said, than done. And of course, you still face the prospect of having trouble if one of your tanks bog down, creating a snarl up for those coming along behind.

[Bulletpoint]

9 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

This sounds like a nice idea. Although one that might be easier said, than done. And of course, you still face the prospect of having trouble if one of your tanks bog down, creating a snarl up for those coming along behind.

That's true, but no different from how it works now...

[Erwin]

Sounds like a good idea.  You'd have to make sure that the initial starting positions for all the tanks in the convoy one is creating started in suitable positions. ie:  The path from the tank being selected to the tank it is following is clear.

One thought though...  when one orders inf to embark, it's not uncommon for the inf to try to move to the position the tank will be at at the end of its movement.  Have experienced that frequently even when sure that the orders were given in the correct sequence.  Hope the same issue wouldn't be a problem for tank movement as it seems like a similar sort of action.

[Warts 'n' all]

I would never attempt to mount infantry onto a vehicle that has multiple waypoints set. But, then, perhaps that is due to the fact that I'm a 400 year old cavalry officer who takes a bit longer to get into the saddle, than I once did.

[Erwin]

I didn't mean to mount anyone in this situation.  (That didn't come out quite right.)  (Oops, neither did that...  never mind.)    Was referring to the interesting idea of automating the process by which vehicles (or inf for that matter) could follow each other in convoy.

[StieliAlpha]

On 5/31/2018 at 7:46 PM, sburke said:

The bigger issue (at least to me) isn’t so much where I place the movement point, but what happens when I get a traffic jam. That is the real killer - timing.   And of course unexpected events that cause a vehicle to react and suddenly my well planned traffic flow goes to hell.  Even a single bogged vehicle can cause a pile up and begin the vehicle dance.  

This tends to make me very conservative in my large scale vehicle movements. I move smaller sections maybe 4-5 vehicles tops if they are following the same route. 

Yep, I try not to move in a single file, but with the vehicles on alternating sides of the road. That helps a little to avoid traffic jams.

But yes, road movement of groups is a pain.

[sburke]

5 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

I would never attempt to mount infantry onto a vehicle that has multiple waypoints set. But, then, perhaps that is due to the fact that I'm a 400 year old cavalry officer who takes a bit longer to get into the saddle, than I once did.

really?  you don't look a day older than 350!

[Warts 'n' all]

3 minutes ago, sburke said:

really?  you don't look a day older than 350!

You flatterer. You are definitely spared the axeman for that one.

[mjkerner]

But, unfortunately, you are very homely.  Sorry, but I just state the facts, Sir.

[mjkerner]

And no kettle-calling-the-pot-black comebacks.  I'm definitely much, much more handsome than you!

[Michael Emrys]

On 6/23/2018 at 2:41 AM, Bulletpoint said:

One possible solution could be to make it possible to copy the waypoints of vehicle 1 to vehicle 2.

It would work like this:

You have 5 tanks that have to drive in convoy.

1: You click the first tank and give it the right waypoints for the movement path along the road.

2: You then select the second tank, choose a movement command, but then you click on the first tank. Just like when you order infantry to embark on a vehicle.

3: The game now plots a movement for tank 2 to take it to the current locaction of tank 1, and then from there it just uses the movement points of tank 1 that you already plotted. In essence, it copy/pastes the movement location data of tank 1 to tank 2.

4: You select tank 3 and order it to move "on to" tank 2. It copies the series of waypoints just like tank 1. Etc

 

The advantage of this system is that there's no advanced group movement AI or road following code. It literally just copies the already plotted movement points from one vehicle to another, adding with an extra step to make sure vehicle 2 goes to the current location of vehicle 1 before setting out on the path of vehicle 1. 

 

This is basically how it worked in TacOps. But as I have posted before, that is a different game with different code, and what might be easy in one might be a nightmare in the other.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

5 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

In essence, it copy/pastes the movement location data of tank 1 to tank 2.

After thinking a bit more about this, I realise it would mean all vehicles would end up with the same end point. This can be solved by making the copy/paste operation of waypoints simply ditch the last movement segment.

While plotting the movement points of the first vehicle in the column, the user would just know that the final X points plotted would then end up being the final destination points of the following X vehicles.

[Bulletpoint]

On 6/23/2018 at 11:41 AM, Bulletpoint said:

In essence, it copy/pastes the movement location data of tank 1 to tank 2.

After thinking a bit more about this, I realise it would mean all vehicles would end up with the same end point, so they'd try to cram into the same space. This can be solved by making the copy/paste operation of waypoints simply ditch the last movement segment.

While plotting the movement points of the first vehicle in the column, the user would just know that the final X points plotted would then end up being the final destination points of the following X vehicles.

[DerKommissar]