Rinaldi Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 'Dirty trick' implying having indirect fires on call for when a firefight suddenly erupts, or would you like to just stop beating around the bush and out and out accuse the US of setting up a scenario in which they get to beat up on the Syrians and their support? We go from fingers-in-ears denial to a not so subtle conspiracy theory. I assure you, if the US wanted to do something insane, Cheeto Benito would just do it - we're talking about the dunderhead that flung tomahawks at an airfield because he wanted to. If I'm taking the piss, lord knows what you're doing. As to @IMHO and @IanL fine, fair points - but I would say its more telling that a unit attacking failed to allocate the proper amount of fire support and security measures. AIrpower I can understand - the opposition isn't expected to have it. Edited April 4, 2018 by Rinaldi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 1 minute ago, sid_burn said: Anyone who truly believes Russian forces are considered unplayable against the US needs to take a long hard look at whether it’s the game or whether they are just not as good as they think they are. Any input on the difference between RL and in-game 2A42 behaviour? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid_burn Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, IMHO said: Any input on the difference between RL and in-game 2A42 behaviour? Yes, if it’s anything like almost every other debate on equipment I’ve see on this forum the answer is simple, the side complaining doesn’t want an accurate representation of reality (which is what BFC is trying to achieve) and simply wants to use the topic to grandstand about how their favoured side is “underpowered.” It really detracts from the few actual bugs that exist in the game and need fixing. As in all games, let’s follow Cranky’s advice: Edited April 4, 2018 by sid_burn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Rinaldi said: implying having indirect fires on call for when a firefight suddenly erupts It was a teeny bit more than indirect fires.....My comments aren't based on any 'conspiracy theory' they are based on a US account of the event, posted by an individual connected to forces on the ground. Edited April 4, 2018 by Sgt.Squarehead 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, sid_burn said: the side complaining doesn’t want an accurate representation of reality (which is what BFC is trying to achieve) and simply wants to use the topic to grandstand about how their favoured side is “underpowered.” I'm sure we all want an accurate representation of reality. So if you believe I'm wrong in my assessment may be you can offer your logic of calculation and input checkable to the actual specifications or tests. Then we can discuss the numbers instead of who wants what... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sid_burn Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 30 minutes ago, IMHO said: I'm sure we all want an accurate representation of reality. So if you believe I'm wrong in my assessment may be you can offer your logic of calculation and input checkable to the actual specifications or tests. Then we can discuss the numbers instead of who wants what... You seem to be thinking I have some specific complaint about your data or your assertion, I don’t care enough about the non-issue to test it. I’m just saying, statistically speaking, complaints about equipment that aren’t clear bugs (I.e. that bug about ukranian tanks not firing properly), are almost always soapboxes for nationalistic grandstanding. And like I said, it’s a shame as I think it shifts focus away from actual bugs (like the 4.0 infantry bug). Non-issues like “Help I lost MTLBs to bricked Bradleys, pls fix” or “help my favourite toy doesn’t do x” sadly take away from more pressing matters like “my men run like lemmings from some bolt action rifle fire and spotting rounds.” Something members like @Rinaldi and others have mentioned Edited April 4, 2018 by sid_burn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Yeah, I get what you are saying @sid_burn but what @IMHO posted was an attempt at analysis to see if a weapon system worked as expected. We have had a log of whining and winging as you describe but actual tests and questions about results are not really in the category. Perhaps @IMHO starting a new thread instead of adding to this politically loaded thread would have garnered a better response. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Yeah. ^^^ @IMHO did take a first step. How 'bout it? Break it out into another thread? (My pet bugaboo is follow-on shot modelling, which relies upon gun platform stability, and whether or not the game does it justice.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 8 minutes ago, c3k said: Yeah. ^^^ @IMHO did take a first step. How 'bout it? Break it out into another thread? (My pet bugaboo is follow-on shot modelling, which relies upon gun platform stability, and whether or not the game does it justice.) Yepp. I'll finish testing some detection in an hour or so and will make another thread as IanL advised. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 3 hours ago, IMHO said: AFAIK for HE-I/HEFRAG the accuracy of M242 and 2A42 are comparable. It's APDS that makes M242 1.5-2.0 times as accurate. So for HEFRAG for a vertical wall we're talking about decimetres with lethality radius of 7m if I remember the latter correctly. I don't think CM models different dispersion for different ammo types for the same cannon except to the extent that muzzle velocity differs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 2 hours ago, Rinaldi said: As to @IMHO and @IanL fine, fair points - but I would say its more telling that a unit attacking failed to allocate the proper amount of fire support and security measures. In other words, they were not using Russian doctrine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinaldi Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) 1 minute ago, Vanir Ausf B said: In other words, they were not using Russian doctrine Ha, touchè. Edited April 4, 2018 by Rinaldi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 (edited) So we leave this thread for heated discussions and I'll make another one for numbers? 3 hours ago, Rinaldi said: As to @IMHO and @IanL fine, fair points - but I would say its more telling that a unit attacking failed to allocate the proper amount of fire support and security measures @Rinaldi, it was not a military operation at all. Local warlord raised Arab militia for a raid against Kurdish controlled installations and bribed or promised mountains of gold to some Russian PMCs to join in. Russian military command in Syria didn't have a clue what was in the works. So this ragtag party went about their business having done no proper reconnaissance, without air support and having just one howitzer of 30s as an artillery support. This Russian PMC is mostly staffed with wanna-be-tough freaks that served in the Army some decades ago. They are not equipped to the Russian Army standards of today - no vests, no night vision, almost no optics and small arms produced in 60s. Against US reconnaissance drones and full bunch of air support in the form of AH-64s, F-15s (if I'm not mistaken) and AC-130. PMC's low level commanders intentionally didn't speak to Russian HQ in Syria. Have they done so they would have been immediately sent home at best since Russian HQ in Syria could have easily predicted how it would end. They have permanent A-50 coverage of the skies so they would have seen what's coming. When Americans called Russian HQ to ask what the f%ck is going on Russian HQ honestly said they knew nothing and had no idea who's doing this. So the raid party was annihilated. When the truth came out Russian MoD was furious as hell as this meant gross insubordination and a blatant attempt to conduct their own private version of state policy in Syria. The guys in Russia who were looking after this PMC had a swift and painful punishment befell their heads. So no, I don't think it's comparable to a proper military operation of the modern Russian Army. Edited April 4, 2018 by IMHO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 36 minutes ago, IMHO said: Against US reconnaissance drones and full bunch of air support in the form of AH-64s, F-15s (if I'm not mistaken) and AC-130. You forgot the BUFF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 46 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: You forgot the BUFF. Oh my... Turkey shoot 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraze Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 9 hours ago, IMHO said: Which one? US decimating tribal/PMC raid party? Does "0 outcome" mean no US casualties? Yes if by "tribal/PMC raid party" you mean professional russian soldiers armed with modern tanks and large caliber arty and yes 0 casualties for US. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, kraze said: Yes if by "tribal/PMC raid party" you mean professional russian soldiers armed with modern tanks and large caliber arty and yes 0 casualties for US. Hmmm... Are we talking about the same event? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHO Posted April 4, 2018 Share Posted April 4, 2018 Just now, Sgt.Squarehead said: I've made a (hopefully ) flame-free topic for talking numbers. I did detection test and posted the results there. And I'm kind of hamstrung by the results 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 17 hours ago, IMHO said: PMC's low level commanders intentionally didn't speak to Russian HQ in Syria. Have they done so they would have been immediately sent home at best since Russian HQ in Syria could have easily predicted how it would end. They have permanent A-50 coverage of the skies so they would have seen what's coming. When Americans called Russian HQ to ask what the f%ck is going on Russian HQ honestly said they knew nothing and had no idea who's doing this. So the raid party was annihilated. When the truth came out Russian MoD was furious as hell as this meant gross insubordination and a blatant attempt to conduct their own private version of state policy in Syria. The guys in Russia who were looking after this PMC had a swift and painful punishment befell their heads. I am curious can you provide links to where you learned that account of the event? At the time I did not dig for much detail but that does not match my impression of what happened so I would like to dig a little deeper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Der Spiegel has an interesting article on this: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Bud Backer said: Der Spiegel has an interesting article on this: Oh that is interesting. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 Learned a new word from the article as well: "paroxysm" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerrTom Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Erwin said: Learned a new word from the article as well: "paroxysm" Germans are obligated by law to be very precise in their wording! Very interesting article, surprised I missed it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinophile Posted April 5, 2018 Share Posted April 5, 2018 (edited) Syrian local players have previously tried pushing their luck v US backed forces,, viz that column last year in, I think northern Syria, rapidly approachd staging US/allied militia, which was bracketed and buzzed until they finally cottened on. I guess it's very slow trickle down effect... No Russian commander would approach US aligned forces without AS or AD. Russia doesn't have enough decent hardware in Syria to chuck away on an unsupported smash n grab. So, dumb, greedy local warlord rings true,for this couch potato private. Edited April 5, 2018 by kinophile 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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