C2 & Information Sharing (REDUX)

[MOS:96B2P]

The screenshots in the original C2 and Information Sharing topic were destroyed by Photobucket. As a result a REDUX C2 and Information Sharing topic was created with new screenshots. Some mods that will show up most often in the screenshots are, user interface (UI) and floating icons:  

Floating Icons – Cat Tactical Icons CMFI

User Interface – Juju’s TweakedUI CMFI V5

Some interesting topics have been started about how information moves through the C2 chain both vertically (up & down the chain of command) and horizontally (directly from one team to another team).  As a result I did some experimenting with C2 & information sharing.  Below are the results with screenshots from the experiment.  If anyone can offer a correction or additional information please do. 

Additional useful information and supplemental C2 rules:   

4.0 Engine Manual page 66 Command & Control.

@Bil Hardenberger Command Friction 2.0 -  http://community.battlefront.com/topic/125172-command-friction-20/

@Peregrine Command Layers - http://community.battlefront.com/topic/110861-command-layer-in-ai-battles/

 

 

The distance information can be shared vertically (chain of command).

Voice C2: Up to six action spots, approximately 48 meters. If either unit is on Hide then the distance is reduced to approximately 16 meters.

Close Visual C2: Up to 12 action spots, approximately 96 meters. This is also the maximum distance a higher HQ can fill in for a lower HQ. Example: Company or battalion HQ fills in for a platoon HQ and provides C2 to the platoon's fire teams. 

Distant Visual C2: As far as the unit’s line of sight.  (In the experiment I had units in distant visual C2 at 40 action spots, approximately 480 meters before I stopped.)

Radio C2: Entire map.  In the WWII titles, CMSF & CMA - C2 via backpack radio is lost during foot movement. C2 is maintained during foot movement in CMBS.

The distance information can be shared horizontally (directly between teams).

Up to four action spots, approximately 32 meters. (Sometimes a team had to move to within 3 action spots)

Can information be shared horizontally between teams from different battalions?

Yes

Can information be shared between two different HQs that do not have a common higher HQ?

Vertically: No (With no common higher HQ there is no bridge for the information to pass over) 

Horizontally: Yes

The experiment was conducted on skill level Iron in CMFI v2.0 Engine 4.  I used two different US battalions on a custom made map for the experiment.  The 4^th US Tank Battalion on the west (left) side of the map and the 1^st US Infantry Battalion on the east (right) side.  A high ridgeline divided the two battalions.  HQ units are blocked from C2 Voice, Close Visual and Distant Visual with other HQ units. At the beginning of the experiment no units of the 4^thBattalion were in C2 with units of the 1^st Battalion.  An immobilized German Tiger and a destroyed Tiger were used as the OpFor unit to be spotted and reported.  

The Area of Operations (A/O) for the experiment. Note the highlighted scout team with no C2.   

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

The scouts move out to locate the German Armor. 

 

The scout team obtained tentative armor contacts, however they are out of C2 and unable to make a SPOT report back to their platoon HQ.  

 

The scouts obtain a confirmed armor contact for German Tigers however they are still out of C2 and unable to make a SPOT report. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[JoMac]

Thanks again for this C&C (Redux)...

Ops, I probably posted too soon as you might have more posts to come.

Joe

Edited November 25, 2017 by JoMc67

[MOS:96B2P]

1^st Platoon HQ is selected but shows no contact icon for the German Armor.  No C2 with the scout team means there is no way for the scout team to report the Armor contact. If the scout team is KIA the information about the Tiger tanks will be lost with the scouts.  

The scouts move to report to 1^st Platoon HQ which still has no contact icon for the Tiger. The contact has changed back to tentative because it is now the last known location for the Armor.  

As the scouts approach 1^st Platoon HQ they come within close visual C2 range (12 Action Spots).   

The scouts report the tentative armor contacts to 1^st Platoon HQ at about 10 Action Spots.

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[A Canadian Cat]

Excellent, information post! Again.

[MOS:96B2P]

Bravo Company HQ is selected but has not yet received the report of the Armor, so shows no contact icon. 

 

1^st Platoon HQ radios Bravo Company HQ with the report of the Armor.   

 

1^st Battalion HQ is selected but has not yet received the report of the Armor, so shows no contact icon.

 

At 03:52:20 Bravo Company makes radio contact with 1^st Battalion. Prior to this Bravo Company was having problems reaching Bn. on the radio. If you look at Bravo Companies C2 links two & three screenshots above you will see Bravo Company had no C2 with Battalion for a short time.  Both HQs were stationary so in theory should have been able to communicate.  I’m not sure if this is intended behavior but it does happen occasionally.  Intended or not I think it adds realism.

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

Bravo Company HQ radioed 1^st Battalion HQ with the report of the Armor.  1st Battalion HQ then showed tentative armor contact icons after it received the report.  

 

4th Tank Battalion HQ is selected but has no reports of the Armor, so shows no contact icon. With no common higher HQ and no liaison in place between 1^st Infantry Battalion and 4^th Tank Battalion the 4^th does not receive any reports about the Tiger.  

 

A 4^th Tank Battalion Recon team is selected but has no information about the Armor, so shows no contact icon.

 

Back at 03:53:00 the XO Team of Bravo Company / 1^st Infantry began to travel over to 4^th Battalion’s A/O to report. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

4th Tank Battalion Recon is selected but has no information about the Armor or the disposition of 1^st Battalion units.  As a result it shows no contact icons on the east (right) side of the map.  

 

1^st Bn. Bravo Company XO Team moves to within horizontal information sharing distance (4 Action Spots) of 4^th Tank Bn. Recon Team and horizontally shares contact information.  Now when 4^th Bn. Recon is selected it displays contact icons on the east (right) side of the map.  Contact icons fade with age so the Tentative Armor contacts for the Tigers are very light.   

 

The 4th Tank Battalion Recon Section HQ is selected but has no information about the OpFor Armor or friendly contacts.

 

4^th Battalion Recon moves to establish C2 with Recon Section HQ and vertically relay the spotting contacts from the east side of the map.

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

The 4th Tank Battalion Recon team moves into distant visual contact of the Recon Section HQ and from 330 meters reports the Armor & some friendly unit dispositions to the Section HQ (Vertical information sharing).  The Recon Team was given a Pause while moving so they would stop and kneel instead of stopping and going prone.  Kneeling facilitates spotting at distance and when in tall grass/crops.  

 

The Recon Section HQ is selected and displays the new contact icons. 

 

The Recon Section HQ radios 4^th Battalion HQ with the contact reports and 1^st Battalion unit dispositions.  4^Th Battalion HQ then shows the contact icons when selected. 

 

In summary.

VERY COOL GAME!!!

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, JoMc67 said:

Thanks again for this C&C (Redux)...

Ops, I probably posted too soon as you might have more posts to come.

Joe

 No problem.  That made me laugh while I was jumping back and forth between Imgur, my notes and the forum. 

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Excellent, information post! Again.

Thank you.  Now I have to quick check for mistakes while I can sill edit. 

PS - Thank you for the cool floating icons mod. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by MOS:96B2P

[Warts 'n' all]

Really informative series. Of course, in Hollywood, the scouts would have knocked out both Tigers on their own.

[MOS:96B2P]

5 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

Really informative series. Of course, in Hollywood, the scouts would have knocked out both Tigers on their own.

 True!  Thank you my friend!!    

[Michael Emrys]

Very good. I believe I have the process in sharper focus than before. Thank you for your labors, they are a sterling example of how this kind of thing should be done.

Michael

[JoMac]

Ok, so you are saying in just 15 minutes both Friendly Battalion HQs know where the German Armor is...I mean, WOW !..That is pretty Freaking quick.

This means, both Battalion HQ's can technically act, literally, against that Armor Threat on turn 16...WOW !..I say.

In my mind, I always think of a CM Turn as equally 2 minutes of RL, and still, that would mean only 30 minutes before your Battalions HQ's can react.

Well, at least CM does have a C&C system in place...That counts for something.

Edited November 25, 2017 by JoMc67

[Thewood1]

What game mode were you playing...Iron, etc.?

[MOS:96B2P]

11 minutes ago, JoMc67 said:

<Snip> This means, both Battalion HQ's can, technically, Setup and move against that Armor Threat on turn 16...WOW !..I say.  <Snip>  

With some planning during set up and the use of liaisons it could be even quicker.  If XO Teams, with radios, were used as liaisons to the other battalions HQ the information sharing would be even quicker.  If a team with a radio was used, instead of the scout team I used, the information sharing would be quicker still.  

[MOS:96B2P]

8 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

What game mode were you playing...Iron, etc.?

Iron, 2 player Hot Seat. 

[Mord]

Ok. So, now that they are all aware that there is a tank in the vicinity of that building will that increase their spotting ability once they approach the area? Give them a bonus say, in getting LOS on it? Outside of the coolness of all that information being shared between teams and HQs and tanks (and it is cool), what is the benefit in game playing terms? How does it translate?

 

Mord.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Mord

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Mord said:

<Snip>  what is the benefit in game playing terms? How does it translate?  

Some stuff in general: There are many benefits in general from C2 page 66 of the 4.0 Engine manual explains some.  Also @Josey Wales did some testing which in part states Troops within C2 range of their HQ unit are less affected by the temporary impact of suppression upon Morale. Troops within the C2 link are less stressed by being shot at and the immediate impact of seeing team/squad mates killed & wounded is reduced.  The C2 effect is noticeable with senior HQ's over their junior HQ subordinates. For example, a Platoon HQ being in close visual C2 link with its Company HQ provides a clear resistance to the temporary Morale effect of being suppressed. 

Link to Josey Wales topic:  http://community.battlefront.com/topic/125728-the-relationship-between-soft-factors-morale-fatigue/?tab=comments#comment-1723417 

Some stuff specific to the information reference the two tanks:  The 4.0 Engine Manual pg. 68 states one of the benefits of good communications is spotting of enemy units.  It also states a unit isolated from C2 wouldn't be able to target something it didn't spot itself.  (I paraphrased both of those statements) 

The AI can't shoot at tentative contacts but it can generally acquire a confirmed contact quicker if it has a tentative contact to begin with.  (This is my opinion from playing the game I have not experimented with it.)  

And to paraphrase something @womble posted in February 2015 - In terms of situational awareness an intact C2 network will pass spotting information down to the fire teams more quickly, giving them an advantage when trying to acquire the hostile for themselves.   

Link to womble's post: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118133-leaders/?do=findComment&comment=1582020

 

[Mord]

Yeah, I have always understood the whole HQ C2 keeping the subordinate units calmer and the like. That was the easy part of C2 that I carried with me from CMBO+. Being in C2 is better than NOT being in C2, especially during firefights.

So, it does give them a leg up on spotting it themselves. Basically they get a heads up on what to look out for and where. That's cool! Thanks for the clarification.

 

Mord.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Mord

[Hister]

Thank you very much MOS. Like given to you multiple times for this.  

[Thewood1]

I asked about mode because there was a thread years ago about the mode having an impact on the range for visual comms being impacted my game mode.

[Warts 'n' all]

If you play CM because you want to test yourself against history, rather than purely to win, then you play on Iron, with the trees full On, and the command lines Off. 

[MOS:96B2P]

52 minutes ago, Thewood1 said:

I asked about mode because there was a thread years ago about the mode having an impact on the range for visual comms being impacted my game mode.

Hmmmm, that is interesting.  There was a recent comment by @Vanir Ausf B in the below link.  The link is recent but could it be the same general situation you are talking about? 

 http://community.battlefront.com/topic/125830-a-more-realistic-iron-mode/?do=findComment&comment=1726371

 

[Thewood1]

Yeah, I saw that one.  The thread I'm thinking of was at least a couple years ago and was the annual debate about Iron vs elite mode.  There were actual tests done to get some answers.  Its one of those that should have been saved for posterity.