Ost Front Books

[Ivanov]

17 hours ago, kevinkin said:

https://www.amazon.com/Tank-Warfare-Eastern-Front-1943-1945/dp/1783462787/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465647732&sr=1-1&keywords=armored+warfare+on+eastern+front

FYI. Just saw the next edition of Armored Warfare on the Eastern Front is due out next week or so. This is Forczyk's work.

 

 

I'm actually disappointed with this one. It's supposed to be Eastern Front 1943-45, yet of 240 pages 200 are dedicated to 1943. Also, as usually is the case with historical books, there are very few maps, so it's difficult to follow the narrative. That's why I value to Campaigns series of Osprey Publishing - there are enough maps, so you actually know what you are reading about.

[kevinkin]

Yes, I saw a review that mentions the same issues. I have it on order understanding the maps stink. I am more interested in seeing how the writer handles Kursk and the death ride of the Panzers. He seem to think the Germans had a chance albeit slim to win in 42 with an unrelenting drive on the oilfields. Let's see about 43-44. 

In this day on low cost publishing I do not get why maps have to be inserted as if they are an afterthought. 

[Ivanov]

2 hours ago, kevinkin said:

 

2 hours ago, kevinkin said:

His main sources on this are some newer books, mainly "Blood, Steel and Myth" and "Demolishing the Myth". Nothing really interesting for me, since I own both of those books. Basically he repeats the conclusions of the authors: there was no massive clash of armor at Prokhorovka and contrary to Manstein's clams, the Germans were already exhausted and overextended to advance any further. 

IMO the best part of Forczyk's book is the one about the winter 1942/43 up to Manstein's backhand blow. Dnepr campaign is alright, but I already have Osprey's book by Forczyk on this subject.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Ivanov

[kevinkin]

Just received Forczyk's Part Two. The 2 part series might not be where I would start a collection on the east front. Nor are they for reader who would like to own an introduction to the topic. They fall in between a detailed work and summary. Detailed in they focus on armor and a summary since they span the entire war. If there was a military history to bring on vacation, these two are good candidates. They won't tax your brain. They are probably worth getting if you want to complete your east front collection. There are some passages that synthesize materials - e.g. how fuel and industrial choices affect operations - you might not find written down elsewhere. But these conclusions are not that hard to make for a student of WWII to arrive at on their own.

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by kevinkin

[Lt Belenko]

Bit off topic. 

I just wrapped up Storm of War by Andrew Roberts.   EXCELLENT book. Covers big picture.  Well researched

I just picked up Napoleon by Andrew Roberts.  Still on Introduction...got it for Fathers Day - yesterday.  no opinion yet.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Lt Belenko

[Vanir Ausf B]

On 6/15/2016 at 0:03 PM, Ivanov said:

I'm actually disappointed with this one. It's supposed to be Eastern Front 1943-45, yet of 240 pages 200 are dedicated to 1943. .

According to the author that was because the publisher limited his page count, and would not let him change the title.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Vanir Ausf B

[Ivanov]

26 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

According to the author that was because the publisher limited his page count, and would not let him change the title.

I was suspecting that could be the reason. However Forczyk mentioned few tome on the Osprey forum, that he doesn't find the late war as interesting as the 1941-43 period. It's a real shame because I was especially counting on the 1944-45 period, since there's definitely less literature dedicated to it, than to the early war.

[76mm]

37 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

According to the author that was because the publisher limited his page count, and would not let him change the title.

That's the same reason he gives for not publishing a Kindle version.  I think that Forczyk is a pretty good author, but in this age of easy self-publishing I think he's doing a disservice to himself and his readers by letting his publisher push him around like this.  

I would have enjoyed this book at titled, but it sounds like another rehash of Kursk (along with a bit about other stuff in 1943), which I have zero interest in reading about (again).

[Ivanov]

8 minutes ago, 76mm said:

That's the same reason he gives for not publishing a Kindle version.  I think that Forczyk is a pretty good author, but in this age of easy self-publishing I think he's doing a disservice to himself and his readers by letting his publisher push him around like this.  

+1

 

8 minutes ago, 76mm said:

I would have enjoyed this book at titled, but it sounds like another rehash of Kursk (along with a bit about other stuff in 1943), which I have zero interest in reading about (again).

For me tha most interesting part of this book is about the early 1943 up to the Citadel. Chapter about Kursk doesn't bring anything new, the Dnepr campaign is ok, but I've aready red his Campaign book on this subject. As mentioned earlier - the ending of this book seems rushed.

[76mm]

6 hours ago, Ivanov said:

For me tha most interesting part of this book is about the early 1943 up to the Citadel. Chapter about Kursk doesn't bring anything new, the Dnepr campaign is ok, but I've aready red his Campaign book on this subject. As mentioned earlier - the ending of this book seems rushed.

I also read his Dnepr and Kursk North Face books; I think they're pretty good (even though I'm not a big fan of the Osprey series).  I've also read quite a bit about Kursk and a fair bit about early 1943, though, and it just doesn't sound like there is enough other material to make this book interesting.  Oh well...

[kevinkin]

Where did he bring up the page count thing? Online? I can't find a mention in the book itself. He would not hammer the publisher there anyway.

Edit:

https://tankandafvnews.com/2016/06/02/tank-warfare-on-the-eastern-front-an-interview-with-robert-forczyk/

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by kevinkin

[76mm]

@kevinkin, see the comments to one of the Amazon reviews for the book.

Edited June 21, 2016 by 76mm

[John Kettler]

As far as I'm concerned, if you read only one book on the GPW, make it Chris Bellamy's monumental Absolute War. One reviewer calls it "magisterial," and it fully rates that characterization. Happily for me, I got mine for a song a few years ago while visiting my brother out in the SeaTac area. Professor Bellamy made the most of the unfortunately not long open window in which western scholars were allowed access to the Russian State Archives, from which he gleaned priceless primary information on the Russian side of the GPW, a topic on which all too little has been known among the Anglophone researchers. Among other things in this 813 page magnum opus, he makes an excellent case that Russian GPW losses were so severe they ultimately doomed Russia during the Cold War. The losses in even a single operation are practically heart stopping. Survival rate to the end of the GPW for ground combat troops who began on June 22, 1941 and fought to the end? 1% according to a veteran's account on IRemember.ru. Virtually the entire standing army was destroyed in the first year. A million men simply gobbled up in the gigantic maw of WITE! Granted, the Germans took immense numbers of prisoners, most of whom never returned in any form, let alone alive.

https://www.amazon.com/Absolute-War-Soviet-Russia-Second/dp/0375724710

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited June 22, 2016 by John Kettler

[Sublime]

Kiev 41 by Stahel is very good.

[76mm]

Stahel's books are good but they are very focused on logistics (and German war crimes); it is virtually impossible to follow an actual campaign from his books (I've read all 4--Barbarossa, Kiev, Typhoon, Moscow).  Generally quite interesting but he beats the same drum in all four books and by the fourth one it was getting a bit tiresome...

[Sublime]

Hmm I havent read any of the others. But I definitely not seen an overt mention of German war crimes besides the usual. I mean they were basically everyday affairs everywhere in the Eastern Front especially in 41 and 42.

The logisitics yes but makes some brilliant points ive cited here before like the fact that by oct 40 the Germans were supplying Russia with machine tools essential to make weapons in order to receive grain oil etc. So in essence they were supplying both sides in the upcoming war.

Also maybe its just a matyer of reading style or maybe difference in familiarity levels in the East Front but I had no trouble following any of the stuff in Kiev regarding campaigns etc

[76mm]

@Sublime Keep reading the Typhoon and Moscow books...much more about war crimes, less about operations.  I already forget much of the detail about the Kiev book--read it awhile ago now, but IIRC in his other books he talks about things at army group level but when he starts discussing anything lower level it is without any kind of detail (where, when, etc).

And he does have a lot of interesting details/insights, particularly in the first two books--its just that he keeps making the same basic points in the next two books as well...

[Blazing 88's]

On 2016-06-20 at 4:09 PM, Ivanov said:

I was suspecting that could be the reason. However Forczyk mentioned few tome on the Osprey forum, that he doesn't find the late war as interesting as the 1941-43 period. It's a real shame because I was especially counting on the 1944-45 period, since there's definitely less literature dedicated to it, than to the early war.

I totally agree.

[George MC]

If you are after late war Ost front books I'd totally recommend "The Sword Behind The Shield" by Norbert Szamveber - excellent account down to the tactical level day by day of the German efforts to relieve Budapest during Operation Konrad (I, II and III).

[Vanir Ausf B]

Szamveber also wrote Days of Battle.  Both of these books feature color maps.

[Sublime]

@76mm ah well see ive only read Kiev thats where the problem lies. Also Im what would.be described as extremely poor for an American. As in Im literally on foodstamps raising and 5 yr old on my own etc.

So what books do you recommend? Especially lower level like tactical level are there any good Ost Front equivalents to Closing With The Enemy or Company Cmdr or Another Village Another Town?

Mind Ive read a good amt of books on the subject so many suggestions Ive alrdy prolly read.

Still suggestions besides tactical are welcomed as well.

I still remember seeing a huge coffee table Somme book qith gigantic pull out artist paintings of the battle that were insamely dwtailed and groggily accurate along with fantastic modern and pwriod maps and anecdotes and history. I mean this book was INCREDIBLE. It also was a couple hundred dollars. My past haunted me and I almost stole the book. I didnt because I decided anyone who would make such a fantastic work of art ( the paintings in the book are the best combat paintings Ive ever seen ever )

deserves the money.

[76mm]

Don't know any Somme books...you interested in German or Soviet perspective?  For this kind of stuff you usually have to choose, can't have both.  I actually don't know any of the books that you mention.

[Michael Emrys]

22 hours ago, Sublime said:

Another Village Another Town

I think you mean Another River Another Town, doncha? Staying with the Western Front for a moment, I would recommend If You Survive by George Wilson, which I found to be a better book with more useful descriptions of combat. He is infantry instead of armor, so I don't know how that rates with you, but for what it is this is an outstanding book. And paperback copies are available at a very low cost even poor guys like you and me can afford.

Michael

Edited July 20, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[JonS]

Horses and courses and all that, but I didn't think much of Wilson's book. I found him to be an unsympathetic character, and the writing wasn't that great.

Roll me over, by Gantter, on the other hand, I thought was an excellent read.

[Sublime]

Ill read both. Emrys armor rates as well as infantry but honestly Im a little more endeared to the PBI than armor. Just like I almost never play Cmx1 because its inf modelling. It initially in fall of 99 made me go meh and back to CC2 and CC3.

When i found out the 1:1 soldier modelling for x2... thats the single greatest change of the game series IMO it makes it sooo much more realistic feeling and how it plays. And whilst if O played a qb and someone said inf only Id go for it if they said armor only Id probably pass.

 

Time to check out the inter library loan network...  but guys  Wast Front books? And remember Im not new Im pretty groggy. Ive read a lot of East Front stuff already to the point I sometimes forget I read a book until I pick it up. So Bidermanns memoir, Sajer, the obvious ones I read but suggestions are still welcome. What I dont want are survey level introductions to the east front that tell me stalingrad was important.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Sublime