Wargaming "Guilt"

[Mord]

Stop making me feel guilty about feeling guilty.

Sorry.

Mord.

P.S. I feel guilty, now.

[Sickie]

No guilt here, I do feel uncomfortable about the deplorable mental state of part of the wider gamercommunity. Especially gamergate because it makes me feel tainted by association by the lack of reflection from these kids.

Games like call of duty fail where CM succeeds in walking the line between glorification of slaughter and living out an historical and tactical interest.

[domfluff]

This kind of discussion crops up all of the time, with any form of wargaming. Arguably it's easier to justify with cardboard wargames, since there is less visceral depiction of the events themselves.

Ultimately I think it comes down to a question of aesthetics, rather than morals. You personally (well, presumably not if you're reading this board), could find wargaming distasteful, ugly or suspicious, but that's fine as long as that doesn't stray into "... and therefore they should be banned", since censorship is rarely the right answer to anything.

What I personally find more curious is how some differentiate between eras - there are those which are fine with wargaming Ancients or Napoleonics, but will not touch WW2. I've also seen a few on these forums suggest that WW2 is a "safe" subject, whereas modern combat isn't something they're happy to touch.

Again, so long as this is someone's personal, aesthetic opinion, then this is fine, but I do find it more difficult to understand than a simple "I find all wargames abhorrent" point of view.

[agusto]

IMO the more interesting question is: where does this fascination for wargames come from and why do people who enjoy wargames in general do not experience participating in a real war as enjoyable at all?

I think that what makes wargames fascinating is that the player can make all the positive experiences that war brings with itself: the intellectual challenge of solving tactical and strategical problems, the excitment of putting ones life at risk, the great feeling of power that comes from exercising ultimate control over other peoples lifes (by beeing able to kill them), the great adventure of doing things that are completely different from ones everyday life and the excitment of doing things that are normally considered immoral and taboo by society.

In reality, however, the negative experiences of war greatly outweight any positive experience that an individual can make: the massive emotional trauma that can be inflicted by excessive stress and seeing others suffer great pain, the possibility of real physical injury to ones own body, the loss of friends or seeing friends suffer, the feeling of guilt that can come from inflicting pain on or killing other human beeings.

What makes wargaming enjoyable is that you can have all the positive experiences listed above without having to suffer from the negative ones. Wargames are basically a geratly simplyfied, censored depiction of war where all the bad experiences are blanked out and, in games like Call of Duty or Medal of Honor, all the good experiences are exaggerated.

Regarding the particular question of compassion and guilt which was initially asked ITT, i would like to quote Vanif ausf. B who imo gave the best answear on the subject yet:

Years ago a (then) prolific poster on this forum would often refer to Combat Mission as "Chess with tanks". That is simplistic but essentially correct in my view. While CM and similar wargames are less abstracted than Chess, like Chess they are not about death and suffering. They are about strategy and tactics. Nobody gets hurt, and I have never felt any more guilt when playing CM that I have playing Chess.

[John Kettler]

Raptorx7,

Thank you for sharing that post, which I carefully read. I also read a good chunk of the enormous number of comments, which seem to be thoughtful in the original sense of the term.

I have a love/hate relationship with war. I find it endlessly fascinating and intriguing. Equally, disgusting, nauseating and hideous. It at once embodies the very best and worst of our species; of single mindedness; of breathtaking innovation which has forever changed the course of our lives, both militarily and in terms of resultant tech. Of selflessness; of sacrifice; of sheer dogged persistence in the face of seemingly unending disasters and crushing defeats.

My father was a defense engineer (both parents were in the military during the Korean War), so I grew up not only surrounded by nonfiction pertinent books and magazines, but also read lots of military fiction, such as C.S. Forrester's fabulous Hornblower series. It's fair to say I was immersed in studying war and weapons--on a spectrum ranging from the Neolithic through nuclear--from early childhood.

Fundamentally, checkers and chess are wargames, with the last explicitly so and hailing from India. Chess didn't have a chance, though, when my wonderful maternal aunt and uncle gave me AH's Tactics II when I was 12. The subject matter, per se, didn't float my boat, but it alerted me to the existence of AH's historical wargames, an interest which fully flowered some years later. The call to see if you can outperform some major leader from history was irresistible. AH, in turn, was my springboard into modern tactical games, published by SPI and SimCan, to begin with, followed by others. Meanwhile, there was also SL, COI, but I drew the line with ASL. Too much for my budget. Besides, I had discovered many other engrossing games, including tactical warfare with miniatures.

My modern wargaming background was a major part of what got me a job in military aerospace, as was my immediately prior involvement in an intercampus elaborate WW II strategic level wargame.

While it's certainly true that, with either malice aforethought or with no context/support, wargames, especially shooters, can be used to create and foster belligerence, they can also be exceedingly valuable teaching tools, with or without an academic context, and can promote peace by creating a pretty deep understanding of what war actually entails. The counters removed from the table in a board wargame become something else altogether when you read the eyewitness accounts and watch the footage. Just yesterday, I read the initial German air attacks on Stalingrad killed 40,000 people, roughly 2/3 of the total fatalities at the Battle of Gettysburg. I'm much more at home with tactical matters than the broader swathes, but my mind is reeling over what I'm encountering in Bellamy's Absolute War, in which a single major operation could and did produce fatalities exceeding total US KIA in WW II.

I think people's enthusiasm for war has lots to do with excitement, whether genuine or cynically engineered, and young men coming of age are wired to prove themselves as a way of attracting desirable mates. As such, war is the ultimate test of people's and peoples' mettle.

All this is a way of saying that, the more I wargame, the more truly I find myself with a richer and deeper understanding of wars, weapons, those who plan and wage them, particularly on the sharp end of the spear or in the maw of a chipper which devours miliions. An understanding, may I add, not based on experiencing either military service or war directly. But my gaming, my reading and research, along with being slaughtered in paintball decades back, have utterly convinced me Tacitus had it right. Speaking of the Roman way of warfare he said: "They make a desolation, and call it Peace."

Since war is arguably the single greatest focus of mankind/not so kind, I find it entirely relevant and appropriate to explore it via wargaming. I will say, though, that at the level we play, I cringe over my mistakes, such as practically wiping out my 18 Platoon in CMBN:CW because I screwed up. But the martial punishment is nothing like what I feel when it comes to what I know aren't, but my heart and guts perceive, as my men, whose wellbeing and lives depend on me. My results to date suggest depending on me in such matters is exceedingly ill advised. Reading such harrowing accounts as that of the Hallamshires in France during WW II only drives home the reality of what we wargame, for the account below lists the losses individually: who they are, what they did, where they're from and who their parents were. This takes war out of the realm of statistics and makes it chillingly personal. I've long since reached the point, knowing what I know, where I find it incredible they can find people willing to fight war anymore. I think we should use war fomenters, war profiteers and perhaps their generally exempt from the wars offspring, as penal battalions. Were we to do this, I'd expect the conflict rates and scales to drop precipitously. It's easy to start wars when there are no direct personal consequences, but considerably more daunting when the war starter has to face the machine guns, artillery and bombs raining down!

http://www.irdp.co.uk/JohnCrook/yorklancs.htm

Other than those in the military or the supporting establishments, or in or affected directly by military conflict, wargamers probably have the best appreciation for the misery, havoc and unbelievable destruction war and its aftermath bring. They are, therefore, if we ignore the testosterone and caffeine fueled gore fest crowd, often very peaceful individuals. This is based on decades of gaming, game cons, online battles and attending two different CM Beta Demos. Another aspect I would like to bring out is that wargaming is a socially acceptable, albeit geeky to some, way of safely working out frustrations and aggressive instincts. For me, and I suspect many here, it is an intellectually stimulating form of stress release. Indeed, to play well, you have to focus on the game. Because of that, wargaming becomes a kind of meditation, substituting a few stimuli for the normal TOT we call modern life. This can and does create issues in other social interfaces, but for many, wargaming is an island of stability amid maelstroms.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Trooper117]

Been a soldier all my adult life... I also play war games, I'm keenly interested in all types of military history and I play games as part of that interest.

Do I feel guilt? Do be brief, lol!... they are games!

[c3k]

And this is why I'm glad there's no gore in CM. It delineates that this is a game.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

You are never going to get a realistic simuylation of war and, even if we could do it , it would not be desireable to do so. We can havwe reasonably authentic combat results falling within a range of possible paramers. Outr troops can become pinned and fire ieffectively or even run away. We would not want to actually experience any of this in rrealiy which is why our wargame is, at best, a authetic simulation of some of the reality without the fear, the mud and the death/destruction f a real war. And, in the context of BS nobody is going to launch the nukes at some point which might well happenif this war were ought for real. Essentially what we are doing is gamming a reasonably authentic simulation of tactical combat.

[Mord]

Which reminds me of something that popped up on the other site; that playing violent games desensitizes you to violence. I hear this argument about movies as well and it is a complete and utter ******** argument. In no way does seeing a guy in a horror movie getting a machete to the head or seeing dudes blowed up in a game, make maiming, suffering, or death any easier to experience in real life. The two things are mutually exclusive in my opinion. When I see a guy get his head chopped off in 300, I go; that was cool! 'cause I know it is fake and part of the show. If I saw it happen in my backyard tomorrow, I'd puke. There's a huge difference between the two.

When I was in Basic one of the DSs was showing us some slides from his last tour. One ended up being a pic of a guy that had held a blasting cap in his mouth while he was fiddling with some C4 or something...it was an aftermath/don't be that guy/life lesson, all rolled into one. No movie, no game, no book, no nothing, was as real and sickening as that picture and I can only imagine how horrifying it would've been to witness it in person. I wasn't desensitized after 25+ years of horror movies, roleplaying games, and wargames. And if somehow playing a game, any kind of game, can desensitize you to death and slaughter then maybe you have mental problems already.

That's my take on it, anyway.

Mord.

[TacKLed]

When I was in Basic one of the DSs was showing us some slides from his last tour. One ended up being a pic of a guy that had held a blasting cap in his mouth while he was fiddling with some C4 or something...

I've seen that pic, but from what I've heard it was the blasting cap for a Claymore.

And another thing is that I see wargames as some sort of authentic, playable movie. Especially Combat Mission. While in movies I always cringe at the tactics and whatnot being used for the sake of entertainment while here I can go at my pace and create an authentic experience. It's pretty fun when I look at it that way.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

Wargames teach you something about war and may well lead you to research some of the political background and other related issues, In my experience wargamers are often better informed about these issues than many civillians. On other forums I have cme accross some real idiots who, as well as being virulantly anti |American obviousl don't know the first thing about how global geopolitics (they often don't know what this word even means) or about how war & conflict works.

[Mord]

I've seen that pic, but from what I've heard it was the blasting cap for a Claymore.

That could've been it. it was 2009 when I saw it. I thought he was there when it happened but maybe it's a pic that they show around as a cautionary tale. Regardless, it was shocking and ghastly. LOL. No part of me went, oh wow, I can't wait to see something like that in person!

Wargames teach you something about war and may well lead you to research some of the political background and other related issues,

They've absolutely expanded my knowledge and interest in a lot of areas of history because I can actually participate in what I have read and learned about—a vicarious exploration of the past. And depending on the scale/focus of the game, could actually get involved in the geopolitics of which you spoke of in the rest of your post.

I think as many of us do, that it's a great hobby.

Mord.

[agusto]

Which reminds me of something that popped up on the other site; that playing violent games desensitizes you to violence.

(...)

I wasn't desensitized after 25+ years of horror movies, roleplaying games, and wargames. And if somehow playing a game, any kind of game, can desensitize you to death and slaughter then maybe you have mental problems already.

That' s the whole point. Depending on which studies you quote the amount of psychologically unstable persons in western societies (and i am now only talking about western societies because it is difficult to get studies on the mental health of let s say Afgahnistans population) varies between 20-30%. Of course these statistics include everything, from raping and murdering sociopaths, who would commit their crimes regardless of what kind of media to they consume, to those who in general manage it to normally fit into society but who have the potential for commiting crimes of various degrees if they are brought in a situation that triggers that kind of behavior. There are numerous reports of criminals who, when interrogated by police after they were caught, specifically referred to certain games or movies as inspiration for what they did. The movie 'Natural Born Killers' for example is infamous for beeing quoted by several criminals as inspiration for their crimes. The conclusion is that there is a certain number of people who may be negatively influenced by violence in the media and that the amount of violence that can be responsibly shown in movies and games correlates with that number.

You also must not forget that the media we consume are already censored in regard to violence. Most countries have lists of games or movies that are prohibited from beeing sold or possessed. In Germany, for example, the game "Concentration Camp Tycoon/KZ-Manager" is prohibited from beeing sold or possessed (and for good reasons), while other games such as the Manhunt series (a game that is about murdering civillians in the most brutal way possible, points are awarded for cruelty) are not allowed to be sold.

So the violent games and movies you have consumed were only those containing the socially accepted forms of violence, which, of course, are designed in a way so that most grown-ups can consume them without beeing traumatized or negatively influenced. I am sure though that with modern technology it would be possible to design a movie or game capable of traumatizing grown-up, mentally stable people. Think of a high quality 2-hour reinaction of an ISIS-style mass-beheading with dull pocket knifes or an accurate reinaction of the murder committed by german cannibal Armin Meiwes who sexually tortured his victim for over 3 hours before letting it bleed to death. We dont see these things on TV because they are so graphic that most people would not want/couldnt bear to watch them.

Wargames teach you something about war and may well lead you to research some of the political background and other related issues, In my experience wargamers are often better informed about these issues than many civillians.

That is my experience as well. But, given that war according to Clausewitz is nothing but "the continuation of politics by other means.", it is no wonder that wargamers are interested in the political backgrounds of military conflicts. I also often find myself in a reversed situation: i know about the political background of a conflict and then i start to look for a wargame on that topic.

[Bulletpoint]

I don't have any guilt when playing Combat Mission, because contrary to many other military games, it doesn't indulge in the violence or reduce the people involved to charicatures.

I find that the game (CMBN) makes me learn more about the real war and the real people fighting it. If anything, it makes me more of a pacifist.

[Bulletpoint]

while other games such as the Manhunt series (a game that is about murdering civillians in the most brutal way possible, points are awarded for cruelty)

I think the Manhunt series has you killing psychopatic gang members dressed in horror costumes, not civilians..

[agusto]

I think the Manhunt series has you killing psychopatic gang members dressed in horror costumes, not civilians..

I played the first part of the series. It is about producing snuff movies IIRC. I am sure you get points for creative or particularily cruel murders though. And gang members are civillians.

[Bulletpoint]

I played the first part of the series. It is about producing snuff movies IIRC. I am sure you get points for creative or particularily cruel murders though. And gang members are civillians.

Well ok, heavily armed gang members dressed like nightmarish clowns and hell-bent on killing anything that moves... are technically civilians

[Mord]

l for commiting crimes of various degrees if they are brought in a situation that triggers that kind of behavior. There are numerous reports of criminals who, when interrogated by police after they were caught, specifically referred to certain games or movies as inspiration for what they did. The movie 'Natural Born Killers' for example is infamous for beeing quoted by several criminals as inspiration for their crimes. The conclusion is that there is a certain number of people who may be negatively influenced by violence in the media and that the amount of violence that can be responsibly shown in movies and games correlates with that number.

I don't wanna get in a big giant debate over this, but in my opinion, ultimately people are responsible for their own actions, the rest is excuses. Criminals constantly excuse their own actions and place the blame on someone or something else. It's called responsibility and there's another trend in the world today, America especially, where it's avoided at all costs.

Mord.

[agusto]

I don't wanna get in a big giant debate over this, but in my opinion, ultimately people are responsible for their own actions, the rest is excuses. Criminals constantly excuse their own actions and place the blame on someone or something else. It's called responsibility and there's another trend in the world today, America especially, where it's avoided at all costs.

Exactely. They are responsible for what they do and it wasnt my intent to find excuses for other peoples crimes. However i do think that by understanding the social mechanisms that make people commit crimes, we can construct our society in such a way so that potential criminals wont get in a situation where they go from potential criminal to active criminal. The goal is not to protect the crimnals from beeing prosecuted by the law but to protect those who would become their victims.

[womble]

And this is why I'm glad there's no gore in CM. It delineates that this is a game.

And yet it is possible (for some at least, you'll just have to trust me here, Ken) to feel bad about your pTruppen getting geeked because you put them in harms way (and to feel vengeful about it). Because it's sufficiently verisimilar. Not quite immersive enough to make me throw myself out of my chair to dodge a rocket (I'm lookin' at you, Deus Ex) or look over my shoulder to find out where the threat's coming from (and you, AvP), but enough to be glad I'm not writing the letters home, or down there in the weeds with the PBI.

[Jargotn]

War always was mythical and exiting. Because it had to be.

Very few people would support war, any war, if they were told "Our guys will go, do some killing and do some dying. All in all they will cause a lot of pain, agony, etc., Support us!"

War is exciting because thats what Society thought us.

[MarkEzra]

RaptorX7: Check out my tag lines

[AttorneyAtWar]

RaptorX7: Check out my tag lines

I agree wholeheartedly with that quote Mark, like I said before this "thought" (I really should have called it, I was a bit dramatic in my OP wasn't I heh) was just something I was pondering. I will continue to play and enjoy war-games, I learn things about war and the history and I enjoy the challenge of playing them out in a virtual space. I think at one point we all think about it at least once, especially those who haven't served in the military, and at least for some on here that is true. I won't let it consume me because at the end of the day it is a game first and I look forward to all of the future CM titles and other Wargames!

:cool:

[Dynaman216]

Anyone who tries to make you feel guilty for playing a wargame is full of "feces". Grand Theft Auto on the other hand...

[A co]

What people should really feel guilty about is living in total ignorance of history and of how things work in the world outside of their own experience. (They are surrounded by 'unknown unknowns').

Wargaming is, for most of us I think, a big and very salutary stimulus to learning about history. It could even lead to learning about social, economic, geographic, linguistic, technological history, and God knows what else.

It's reasonable to ask oneself occasionally, "Am I ignoring the actual horror of these battles that are depicted on my computer screen?" But really I would rather be in our position as wargamers than in the position of those who turn their back on history.

And why does it fascinate us? Perhaps because once we stopped living by hunting we've been re-enacting various version of the hunt ever since.