Wargaming "Guilt"

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I recently met a man who served in the Scots Guards during the Falkands War. I am informed enough to know that he must therefre have fought at Mount |Tumbledown, smething I knew better than to ask about because I am aware it must have been a horriffic expereience and questions might give rise to bad memories of the battle. However, I also found out that the man shares my interest in wargaming.

As a hobby wargaming can and does stimulate an nterest of or investigation into a whole range of other issues. It can, among ther things leasd us to look more deeply into current affairs such as the current conflict over Ukraine. We can look into the causes of the conflict by being aware of the history involved, the ecnomic issus (raw materials and industry in Eastern Ukraine etc)

Wargamers can be, and often are much better informed than others. I have run into some real idiots in debates on Huffington Post for example. They are virulently anti American, blaminfg the crsis on "US Imperialism - there is to them no such thing as Russian Imperialism, no such thing as the Eurasian Union project - and Putin/Russia are "competely innocent" of any wrongdoing at all)Actually it soon becomes clear they don't know the first thing either about the crisis or about the dangers it poses to world peace. Nor do they recognise how the lessons of the 1930s can be applied to today's situation. Politican rant over - i ids just there to lllustrate a point :-)

[Cpl Steiner]

What an interesting post, though I am coming to it late.

Re. "guilt", I don't feel this per se, but I do feel the need to balance play of these sorts of games with games where violence is not the central theme. I play "Kerbal Space Program" so I can experience the thrill of a challenge that does not involve trying to cause harm to people. If I played nothing but war games I think my soul would somehow become "dirty".

[Trooper117]

Good grief!... (as per Charlie Brown)

[Wodin]

Honestly..I feel no guilt about my hobby at all and if I ever did I'd stop.

[TheVulture]

I don't feel guilty about playing the game, because it is just a game, but...

When I was researching battles for scenarios in the Mogilev area for Red Thunder, I picked reed interesting possibilities based on where battles had occurred and that had interesting maps. When I started researching if anything was written about the fighting in those areas, I found a few scattered bits and pieces. And one name came up a in each battle. It turns out that the guy was awarded " hero of the Soviet union", and his citation mentioned four specific incidents, three of which were the battles I'd picked out.

Oooh, I thought. It might make an interesting mini campaign based on these battles on the theme of this guy.

Then I found a picture of him. Taken at the may day parade in Moscow. That year. He was still alive.

I suddenly felt very uneasy at the idea of making game scenarios about the desperate fighting of someone who was still alive. How could I justify using the terrible things he must have lived through for entertainment.

I did finish two of the scenarios incidentally, and got the map done for the third one. CM doesn't exploit war for mindless entertainment in the manner of call of duty, for example, and can very much be done add education or even, in a way, to commemorate. So I got over that feeling. I might one day get around to finishing that mini- campaign.

But the whole experience was rather sobering and a little unnerving.

[sburke]

Honestly..I feel no guilt about my hobby at all and if I ever did I'd stop.

It is a game- I feel absolutely no guilt playing. No more than anyone else feels paying to go see Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, or Fury or reading Tom Clancy novels all of which pale in pure entertainment per dollar than what I get from this hobby.

Hell watch people line up for Fleet week in SF for air shows and ship parades. Nah I feel no guilt.

The day I start feeling guilty about it is the day I ask one of you all to slap me upside my head and tell me to snap put of it.

I don't feel guilty about playing the game, because it is just a game, but...

When I was researching battles for scenarios in the Mogilev area for Red Thunder, I picked reed interesting possibilities based on where battles had occurred and that had interesting maps. When I started researching if anything was written about the fighting in those areas, I found a few scattered bits and pieces. And one name came up a in each battle. It turns out that the guy was awarded " hero of the Soviet union", and his citation mentioned four specific incidents, three of which were the battles I'd picked out.

Oooh, I thought. It might make an interesting mini campaign based on these battles on the theme of this guy.

Then I found a picture of him. Taken at the may day parade in Moscow. That year. He was still alive.

I suddenly felt very uneasy at the idea of making game scenarios about the desperate fighting of someone who was still alive. How could I justify using the terrible things he must have lived through for entertainment.

I did finish two of the scenarios incidentally, and got the map done for the third one. CM doesn't exploit war for mindless entertainment in the manner of call of duty, for example, and can very much be done add education or even, in a way, to commemorate. So I got over that feeling. I might one day get around to finishing that mini- campaign.

But the whole experience was rather sobering and a little unnerving.

Honor the man. Put his history into the scenario, make sure some people continue to remember him. I think that would actually be a really good thing to do. If he were my father and you did that I'd be deeply grateful. Part of why we are drawn to this is the history. One of my favorite scenarios is the one LLF did for CMSF on Joker Platoon in Ramadi. His scenario got me to read the book and know more about the author and the experiences of the men he fought with which in turn led me to other books. As a result I have a slightly better appreciation for what all those men and women had to go through in Iraq and as a voter it makes me much more aware of decisions my gov't makes and how we need to understand the cost before we put these people in harm's way. We may still need to do that, but we damn well better be giving them everything they need to get the job done right and stop making them pay the price in blood for stupid political wrangling at home. CM has helped make me a more thoughtful citizen and conscious of the cost of war to our young men and women in uniform. That can't be a bad thing.

[AttorneyAtWar]

It is a game- I feel absolutely no guilt playing. No more than anyone else feels paying to go see Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, or Fury or reading Tom Clancy novels all of which pale in pure entertainment per dollar than what I get from this hobby.

Hell watch people line up for Fleet week in SF for air shows and ship parades. Nah I feel no guilt.

The day I start feeling guilty about it is the day I ask one of you all to slap me upside my head and tell me to snap put of it.

Honor the man. Put his history into the scenario, make sure some people continue to remember him. I think that would actually be a really good thing to do. If he were my father and you did that I'd be deeply grateful. Part of why we are drawn to this is the history. One of my favorite scenarios is the one LLF did for CMSF on Joker Platoon in Ramadi. His scenario got me to read the book and know more about the author and the experiences of the men he fought with which in turn led me to other books. As a result I have a slightly better appreciation for what all those men and women had to go through in Iraq and as a voter it makes me much more aware of decisions my gov't makes and how we need to understand the cost before we put these people in harm's way. We may still need to do that, but we damn well better be giving them everything they need to get the job done right and stop making them pay the price in blood for stupid political wrangling at home. CM has helped make me a more thoughtful citizen and conscious of the cost of war to our young men and women in uniform. That can't be a bad thing.

Agreed I would like to see this battle/campaign.

[MikeyD]

Look at the Star Wars movie franchise. Did they really need to set that story in space with flying saucers and space aliens? Tatooine could just as easily have been Tuscon AZ, Chewbacca could have been some tall bearded guy who chews tobacco, Princess Leia could have been a city councilman's daughter and Darth could have been the state's attorney general. Instead of 'flying to the Dagobah system' Luke could have driven his Ford Falcon down to Acapulco. The audience needed that extra degree of separation from reality in order to digest a torrid story of secret bastard children, intra-family murder and political power grabs.

CM is not much different. There's a world of difference between the CMSF fictional invasion of Syria and a current events Syria game where you'd get to drop barrel bombs from helicopters onto residential neighborhoods. The second feels like a rather perverse form of 'entertainment'. Its better to maintain a degree of separation between our entertainment and the real world.

[Trooper117]

Plan Red might make an interesting scenario...

[Nidan1]

A thoughtful human being can seperate real life from a game. The fact that you bring this up at all indicates this.

I started playing wargames as a kid, the foundations of new homes being built in our neighborhood served as the forts, bunkers and foxholes for our imaginations. I am 68 now, and the world has certainly changed, my son shudders at the thought that I might buy my grandson a toy gun. Toy guns are banned in some states because they look too real, youngsters have been shot by police in America because of toy guns.

I have always been interested in history, my dad and I watched every episode of "Victory at Sea" He was a veteran of the Pacific Theater. He bought me my first wargame "Gettysburg" in 1960, in 1966 I was in Vietnam no games there, quite a turn of events, but here I am today still playing.

There is no need for guilt, it is a pastime and a hobby, like collecting stamps or cooking. You can appreciate the folly of war, and realize where would the human race be today if we had spent less of our time and intellect coming up with new ways to kill each other.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Agree with those who say there is no need for guilt.

I find it very easy to separate politics from wargames and study of military history. In the Cold War many westerners happily studied and played Red in wargames. And there was a real threat of war by accident. As we do with SS units in CM.

And "most..." know the line, can easily sense the line, not to cross when still happily investigating and modelling SS units. Without any offense to anyone. Just keeping it purely military.

All the best,

Kip.

[RedBarron]

I'm going to take a slightly different turn on this.

I am a decade older than you, and spent the first decade of my adult life in the Reserve side of the Marine Corps. The war gaming (board and computer), my interest in the tactics, and the military history of my Father and Grandfathers all probably contributed to my ultimate decision to join (but just the reserve side, because NC, CA, and Okinawa all suck compared to my home state WA, and barracks life didn't seem appealing). I got a couple tours to Iraq out of it, plus a few other interesting places in the world to visit for exercises.

Plenty of people here are spot on with the "video games do not equal real life" comparisons. Rather, I would say you should NEVER feel guilty about not joining the military.

"War is just a racket" said a certain Marine Corps General once upon a time, and Mr. Butler is right. In my view, it is far more noble to be a peaceful, private citizen who contributes in their own way to make life better for him/herself and others. In this day and age, it is almost easier to make a living in the military (and a relatively comfortable one at that too for most MOS, after boot camp) than in the "real world". Finding your passion, and profiting from it is, in my worldview, the ultimate way to contribute on a level far beyond playing soldier to carry out the will of politics.

It is a beautiful thing that in our lifetime war is a thing that can be experienced by a human being solely through academic studies and games. There is no shame in limiting yourself to such experiences.

(/hopes he didn't open a big can of worms with the other past/present military guys, but totally not surprised if it occurs)

[womble]

I am 68 now, and the world has certainly changed, my son shudders at the thought that I might buy my grandson a toy gun.

Well it migh have changed where you are, but my parents (I'm 47, so they'd be older than you now, were they still alive) banned anyone from giving me "war toys" of any kind. Which of course simply added the allure of the forbidden to model soldiers and Action Man's panoply of uniforms and firearms.

Toy guns are banned in some states because they look too real, youngsters have been shot by police in America because of toy guns.

That's nowt to do with any anti-war/pacifist sentiment, though, and all to do with the very real danger that peace officers face from very real firearms. I have no real idea when the potential danger from children armed with real weapons became sufficient for cops and their civilian commissioners to decide they could be justified in shooting kids "on suspicion", but I'm sure there is some validity in the stance, and offer no viewpoint on a difficult call. Indeed, is your son's aversion to toy weapons based on the danger to his son of mistaken shooting by police, or on the (mistaken, as I am proof) belief that denying him access to the facsimile trappings of war will dampen any interest in conflict?

[Nidan1]

If I am not mistaken gun ownership in the UK is far more restricted than here in the US, and gun related crime is far less as well, based on population. So when I say "things have changed", I'm speaking of situations in America. War toys were quite the rage for many years, not so much these days.

There is great debate here over gun rights, every State in the USA has its own gun laws, however there never seems to be a shortage of criminals getting guns. Attitudes have changed dramatically, although there is still a strong gun culture here younger people are more passionate about restricting them.

In some inner cities there have been incidents of children being shot by police while carrying a toy gun, I'm not talking about toodlers. but pre-teens.

I dont think my son is worried that his four year old would be shot by a cop, but just the general attitude that guns are "bad" and kids should not have toy replicas.

I dont think playing with toy guns as a child or having a real one as an adult leads one to glorify war. Nor does playing war games IMO.

[womble]

If I am not mistaken gun ownership in the UK is far more restricted than here in the US, and gun related crime is far less as well, based on population. So when I say "things have changed", I'm speaking of situations in America. War toys were quite the rage for many years, not so much these days.

While it's true that gun ownership is far more restricted here in Rightpondia, that's pretty much entirely irrelevant when it comes to war toys. They've been freely and widely available since the year dot, and there have always been pacifist-leaning parents who thought their kids shouldn't have them. I'm pretty sure the States has had Quakers and hippies too

FWIW, the "danger" of fake firearms over here (mostly being used by spotty 'erberts to intimidate convenience store cashiers) has led to sales of "realistic-looking" airsoft weapons being restricted to people with "valid reasons" for owning them. Anyone can buy flourescent-coloured ones.

[MikeyD]

I distinctly recall when CMSF first came out Steve et al said categorically 'We are NOT doing an Iraq occupation sim. We are NOT going to include civilians and gore' or words to that effect. They even made a point of deliberately excluding occupation-specific kit from the game, Circa 2007 it could have been so easy for BFC to have jumped the other way and done a perhaps too topical US occupation/insurgency sim. If you recall the state of the world around 2006-7 that would have made for a very uncomfortable topic to pursue for an 'entertainment' title. I had to check, I don't believe BFC included a Syrian-side campaign attacking Americans - nope, I don't think they did.

[c3k]

Funny anecdote to illustrate changing times....

My father-in-law, as a teen, would go with his uncle into the desert. (US Southwest) They'd go on the highway in a jeep...towing a 37mm antitank gun. Once there, much fun was had by shooting boulders.

Imagine the reaction today...of the environmentalists!

[Combatintman]

Funny anecdote to illustrate changing times....

My father-in-law, as a teen, would go with his uncle into the desert. (US Southwest) They'd go on the highway in a jeep...towing a 37mm antitank gun. Once there, much fun was had by shooting boulders.

Imagine the reaction today...of the environmentalists!

Oh you've gone and done it now ... some comedian is bound to set up a test range in one of the WW2 titles and fire 37mm guns at boulders and claim that the modelling is inaccurate.

[Pete Wenman]

^^^

That moment when an AP round ricochets off a boulder, and hits and destroys the jeep. Followed by said Uncle and Father in Law then having a heated discussion about bell curves and outliers !

P

[John Kettler]

The Vulture,

I'm with sburke on your completing the Moghilev campaign you mentioned. To my mind, what matters are the deeds the HSU winner did, not whether he's alive today. Would you, for example, feel guilty about doing a CMBN scenario which covers the vicious battle of this living MoH winner, George Sakato?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_T._Sakato

CITATION:

Private George T. Sakato distinguished himself by extraordinary heroism in action on 29 October 1944, on hill 617 in the vicinity of Biffontaine, France. After his platoon had virtually destroyed two enemy defense lines, during which he personally killed five enemy soldiers and captured four, his unit was pinned down by heavy enemy fire. Disregarding the enemy fire, Private Sakato made a one-man rush that encouraged his platoon to charge and destroy the enemy strongpoint. While his platoon was reorganizing, he proved to be the inspiration of his squad in halting a counter-attack on the left flank during which his squad leader was killed. Taking charge of the squad, he continued his relentless tactics, using an enemy rifle and P-38 pistol to stop an organized enemy attack. During this entire action, he killed 12 and wounded two, personally captured four and assisted his platoon in taking 34 prisoners. By continuously ignoring enemy fire, and by his gallant courage and fighting spirit, he turned impending defeat into victory and helped his platoon complete its mission. Private Sakato's extraordinary heroism and devotion to duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflect great credit on him, his unit, and the United States Army.[10]

What about a three-day fight Charles Coolidge went through?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_H._Coolidge

Leading a section of heavy machineguns supported by 1 platoon of Company K, he took a position near Hill 623, east of Belmont sur Buttant, France, on October 24, 1944, with the mission of covering the right flank of the 3d Battalion and supporting its action. T/Sgt. Coolidge went forward with a Sergeant of Company K to reconnoiter positions for coordinating the fires of the light and heavy machineguns. They ran into an enemy force in the woods estimated to be an infantry company. T/Sgt. Coolidge, attempting to bluff the Germans by a show of assurance and boldness called upon them to surrender, whereupon the enemy opened fire. With his carbine, T/Sgt. Coolidge wounded 2 of them. There being no officer present with the force, T/Sgt. Coolidge at once assumed command. Many of the men were replacements recently arrived; this was their first experience under fire. T/Sgt. Coolidge, unmindful of the enemy fire delivered at close range, walked along the position, calming and encouraging his men and directing their fire. The attack was thrown back. Through 25 and October 26, the enemy launched repeated attacks against the position of this combat group but each was repulsed due to T/Sgt. Coolidge's able leadership. On October 27, German infantry, supported by 2 tanks, made a determined attack on the position. The area was swept by enemy small arms, machinegun, and tank fire. T/Sgt. Coolidge armed himself with a bazooka and advanced to within 25 yards of the tanks. His bazooka failed to function and he threw it aside. Securing all the hand grenades he could carry, he crawled forward and inflicted heavy casualties on the advancing enemy. Finally it became apparent that the enemy, in greatly superior force, supported by tanks, would overrun the position. T/Sgt. Coolidge, displaying great coolness and courage, directed and conducted an orderly withdrawal, being himself the last to leave the position. As a result of T/Sgt. Coolidge's heroic and superior leadership, the mission of this combat group was accomplished throughout 4 days of continuous fighting against numerically superior enemy troops in rain and cold and amid dense woods.[3]

You, of course, are the final arbiter of what you do or don't complete, but I hope you finish what you started, recognizing that this is a unique way of honoring a very brave man most of us have never heard of.

Regards,

John Kettler

[agusto]

I spent some time reading WW2 MoH citations on Wikipedia a couple of weeks ago. Some of these guys were not just incredibly courageous but also insanely lucky. Check out this one:

"Second Lieutenant Audie L. Murphy, 01692509, 15th Infantry, Army of the United States, on 26 January 1945, near Holtzwihr, France, commanded Company B, which was attacked by six tanks and waves of infantry. Lieutenant Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to a prepared position in a woods while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone. Behind him to his right one of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. It's crew withdrew to the woods. Lieutenant Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry. With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, Lieutenant Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer which was in danger of blowing up any instant and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to the German fire from three sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. the enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back. For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminated Lieutenant Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted. He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he personally killed or wounded about 50. Lieutenant Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective"

[Migo441]

@Augusto, Yes, Audie Murphy's story is well known and his name would be recognized by many older Americans with no particular interest in military history. Possibly the most famous lower ranking American serviceman of WWII?

Another that comes to mind is Chuck Yeager, but his fame was cumulative based upon a long post-war military career.

(Sorry if derailing thread!)

[John Kettler]

I believe that most people who think of themselves as good people in a just war don't really understand what the real effect is going to be. Never fear. Samuel Clemens aka Mark Twain searingly and mercilessly laid it out for them in The War Prayer.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_War_Prayer

Regards,

John Kettler

[Mord]

I spent some time reading WW2 MoH citations on Wikipedia a couple of weeks ago. Some of these guys were not just incredibly courageous but also insanely lucky. Check out this one:

"Second Lieutenant Audie L. Murphy,

If you play CMFI or like reading WWII memoirs regardless of theater, I highly recommend Murphy's book "To Hell and Back". It is one of my favorites. And as decorated as he was I don't recall him mentioning one medal that he was awarded.—seemed like a fairly humble guy.

Mord.

[Nidan1]

Murphy won every medal for valor that is given out by the US Army to an enlisted man, he also won the highest awards given out by France and Belgium. He won the Medal of Honor when he was 19 years old.

He was given a battlefield commission to Lieutenant.

He also starred in a movie about himself, as well as several westerns.