GreenAsJade Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I just opened a scenario and found it had no artillery. I was surprised what a relief this was. Finally, I can get back to playing a game where it's about soldiers and tanks again, with artillery being a support function. Up till now, I've found the whole CMBN experience has been solely about "use the forces on the map to find the other guy so you can bomb him with artillery, while trying to avoid getting bombed". Forget about the forces on the map actually fighting each other: just scout and bomb (and run). Bring on more combined arms battles without this however-realistic-not-so-fun arty emphasis! GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Are you stating a preference for no indirect fire at all, no off-map large tubes but allow off-map mortars or no off-map at all but allow on-map mortars? Can't make it if I'm not sure what thou wants. Once my present project is finished I am looking to create a small battle, so this concept could dovetail nicely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I quite like having tons of big boomers, thank you very much. I don't much like the other guy having any though. :mad: Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I just opened a scenario and found it had no artillery. I was surprised what a relief this was. Finally, I can get back to playing a game where it's about soldiers and tanks again, with artillery being a support function. Up till now, I've found the whole CMBN experience has been solely about "use the forces on the map to find the other guy so you can bomb him with artillery, while trying to avoid getting bombed". Forget about the forces on the map actually fighting each other: just scout and bomb (and run). Bring on more combined arms battles without this however-realistic-not-so-fun arty emphasis! GaJ Courage and Fortitude lets you have lots of arty. Then makes it difficult to use it. Most of the time, by the time you've gotten a sight of the enemy you're so close you don't want to be dropping HE on 'em. Or if you use it in one scenario you don't get it in the next. Of course, the AI get to drop a metric butt-load of the stuff on you with TRPs and sometimes seemingly inexhaustible ammo. The couple of times you do get to let rip are viciously satisfying revenge for all your poor dogfaces who've been turned into dogmeat by preternaturally accurate heavy mortar fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidFields Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 [i think the small mortars are overly powerful, in effect, in CMBN. No, I don't have data. Just "feels" wrong. But let's see what the Commonwealth module brings, with the 2" mortars.] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 I think that broadly what I'm saying is that up till now my whole CMBN experience has been dominated by arty. It is so powerful that if you have it, you have to use it in a particular way, and if your oppo has it, they will use in that way. The way is "scout, find, bomb". This isn't the kind of wargame I like to play. I like to play battles between inf and tanks on each side. Sure, suppressing or rooting out the enemy with arty plays a role and is fun, but having it as the main element of strategy is one-dimensional. I haven't yet seen how arty can be in the game yet not dominate in this way. Even on-map 60mm mortars are deadly, and the squads with those will operate in the 'scout, find, bomb' mode. If there are a small proportion of these, then the rest of the game can be "infantry and tank battle, with scout-bomb on the side". So clearly, as with everything in life, "all things in moderation" is a good maxim. Maybe arty is like the queen in chess. Powerful, and a good element, but things get silly when there are too many. Due to the awesome powerfulness of arty now, it's way easy for there to be too much. (To be fair, I don't have a lot of experience with 1.01, so maybe this is a bit less of a factor, but I'm not seeing it being a lot less?) GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 3, 2011 Author Share Posted August 3, 2011 [i think the small mortars are overly powerful, in effect, in CMBN. No, I don't have data. Just "feels" wrong. But let's see what the Commonwealth module brings, with the 2" mortars.] In CMx1, which in its day BFC said was as realistic as they could do, I used to avoid wasting points on 60mm mortars: they were in the "useless, just use them if you're forced to" category. Now the first thing I look for in my force (when I open a scenario) is 'where are the mortars', and 60mm has me rubbing my hands with glee and planning their mission. That is a big change. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 OK GaJ, how about something like this then ... Off-map only, 81mm for both sides with reduced ammo. By using the "Scarce" or "Severe" settings for artillery ammo, target selection becomes a tad more important. With no on-map mortars, plinking point targets is not possible. Would this be acceptable for retaining a usable amount of support without become the finger of an angry pagan god? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magpie_Oz Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 The way is "scout, find, bomb". I think that was pretty much how it was / is IRL ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Funny. I have actually been thinking along these lines these last couple of weeks as well. But when we move to the fighting on the Commonwealth front, artillery will play an even more important role in the missions, especially when the Germans are on the offensive. I don't particularly want to have missions that are simply artillery shoots so I'm going to have to get creative to keep it realistic. Not much fun when your success in the mission centres on where you position your FOO. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 The Allies use of arty was massive and they had a lot of ammo. But, as a fun experience I agree that many scenarios I have played are all about spending the firrst 3/4 of the game scouting and using arty to kill troops and guns, with the actual attack only in the last quarter. Can be a bit boring for an hour or so... Not having (heavy) arty could simulate the "after bombardment phase" when the troops move out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destraex1 Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I agree that arty is extremely accurate to the point of ridiculousness. Did an assault over a 500m wide square really carry this much support? It is not much of a challenge to cowardly bomb from afar, but it is a challenge to get spotters in good positions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 OK GaJ, how about something like this then ... Off-map only, 81mm for both sides with reduced ammo. By using the "Scarce" or "Severe" settings for artillery ammo, target selection becomes a tad more important. With no on-map mortars, plinking point targets is not possible. Would this be acceptable for retaining a usable amount of support without become the finger of an angry pagan god? It certainly sounds like it would lead to a more "classically fun" scenario to me. Someone said "scout find bomb" was how it was IRL. Quite possibly so. But IRL they also had to walk for miles to battles etc etc: not fun to game with I like Erwin's take on it ^^^^ as well. And of course all IMHO, YMMV etc, maybe hordes of folk like scout find bomb! GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Bring on more combined arms battles without this however-realistic-not-so-fun arty emphasis So, what you're asking for are more combined arms battles that don't actually have that pesky combined arms bit? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpabrams Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 "I quite like having tons of big boomers, thank you very much. :)" Artillery, Mortars and mines have killed more people than the plague. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I'm curious if you guys are playing campaigns or stock scenarios (or QB's)? I ask because my experience (SP) has been the opposite...more of what it sounds like you're looking for. Besides my homegrown ones which don't count, I've been mainly playing/playtesting user-made scenarios. They're more like scout, maneuver, firefight, scout, maneuver, hit MLR and fight some more. Assault on Huberderie was a bounding slugfest after maneuvering across maybe 1/3 of the map fairly easily, then: fan + sh*t. And some devious, dastardly sight lines...make that lack thereof...on Jerry, who continually had me zeroed. I've rarely been hit hard by arty; these have mostly been company-sized infantry with some armor, and company mortars...maybe a howitzer or nebelwerfer added. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 So, what you're asking for are more combined arms battles that don't actually have that pesky combined arms bit? Not at all. Combined arms, to me at least, is about a clash between the combined armour and infantry forces on each side. Like mjkerner said " scout, maneuver, firefight, scout, maneuver, hit MLR and fight some more". _That_ is what a fun WWII wargame is about. As opposed to "use the forces you have to find the other guy, then bomb him". That's just not the same, even if it is more realistic IMHO. GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 As soon as the first spotting rounds come in run your troops away, arty is ridiculously easy to avoid in CMBN. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemuelG Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 As soon as the first spotting rounds come in run your troops away, arty is ridiculously easy to avoid in CMBN. Unless the enemy has TRPs and there aren't any spotting rounds. Now what? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 4, 2011 Author Share Posted August 4, 2011 As soon as the first spotting rounds come in run your troops away, arty is ridiculously easy to avoid in CMBN. Are you playing H2H? Wanna match, I'll come loaded with arty, you show me how you manage to escape it? I'm always up for a lesson! GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 I've only played a couple of QB, basically been playing scenarios. And yeah I play H2H as the AI is woefully inadequate. I'm up for a game will PM my email. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 Unless the enemy has TRPs and there aren't any spotting rounds. Now what? Bring tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 This is basically an argument about points values. If the points values are accurate, artillery, over the span of the game as a whole would, while lethal, not be overwhelmingly powerful. Too much arty would mean not enough troops on the ground to cope with the survivors of the bombardment. It would mean that bombardments would miss because the enemy would be free to move out from under them without any hindrance. Unfortunately, the points values aren't going to be adjusted. While scenarios don't have a points value calculated within them, I'm sure designers are influenced by the force mixes they could figure out under the limits of the points system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 There was a huge amount of artillery on call for both the US and British sides in Normandy as I am discovering reading a few books on the subject. The British seemed to have access to even more then the US. Quite surprised me just how much and it wouldn't be right to feature a campaign with much less, unless it was all about a much smaller force, or meeting engagements. I actually don't feel that I have access to enough in the scenarios - and I miss the naval support and the air support in the campaigns. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted August 4, 2011 Share Posted August 4, 2011 "There was a huge amount of artillery on call for both the US and British sides in Normandy as I am discovering reading a few books on the subject." The artillery arm of the British army in Europe 1944-45 was actually larger than the infantry. That is to say there were more gunners than PBI. The doctrine was to win with firepower not with blood. It didn't work out quite as anticipated though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.