How to retreat?

[Kolyanich]

retreat hell! we're just attacking in a different direction! oh wait, that's the marines. you army pukes go ahead and retreat... :-p

As one of the British officers from Napoleonic wars described the routing of his regiment: “Advance to the rear in force”

[McAuliffe]

So what I learn from this, BFC has to replace complex UI by only two hotkeys : ANZAC mode and TELEPORTATION.

[RockinHarry]

The Germans made this mistake many times in WW2. In CM:BN's setting the Germans should have realized that they lost France when they couldn't push the Allies into the sea in the first week or two. A modest blocking force could have kept the under supplied, under maned Allied beachhead from expanding very quickly. The Germans could have used the time to pull forces back and create a defensive line that had at least some long term hope of holding. I personally think that would have been eventually defeated too, but not nearly as badly as what happened in Normandy IMHO.

The Germans botched the Eastern Front several times, but the worst one was in the Spring of 1944 when it should have been clear that Army Groups North and South were going to be doomed if the weak Army Group Center was challenged (not to mention obliterated). Not withdrawing the flanking Army Groups after Center fell apart showed amazingly inept leadership.

On the attack the Germans blew it with Zittadel. The commanders knew the attack wasn't going well and that a counter attack was forming that would make it even worse. Did they stop, straighten the lines, and consolidate? Nope, kept right on going and eventually nearly destroyed.

So if you find yourself doing things like this, don't worry... you're in good company!

Steve

Easily said, with a Hitler in lead of everything, knowing nothing but "hold at all costs / no retreat", or "counterattack with inadequate forces" orders. It was the grandest waste and misuse of military leadership competence in history. So when speaking of "germans" you´re speaking mainly of Hitler, not Manstein, Guderian, Rommel, to just name a few.

CMN is not grand strategy, so on the small scale we play and when defending, you can "withdraw" from outpost lines, which usually are given covered withdrawal routes (to the MLR). Beeing in the MLR is a different thing. Usually you have to stand and die (or rout, when a forces morale breaks) and wait for local counterattack, which is to regain positions, but not to save lifes of those been overrun, unless pocketed or isolated. Other "retreats", might include those to move to switchback or alternate positions, which needs careful planning beforehand.

It´s up to a scenario designers setting of parameters (big picture, situation, objectives, casualty threshold), that might oppose our tendency to save our Pixeltruppen from digital death most of the time.

Any other than "planned retreat", is very difficult to conduct, no matter what set of movement orders is used in CMN. Otherwise, obey orders and fight to the last bullet.

[PhantomApple]

Rabaul has plagued my dreams since the day I bought Uncommon Valor. Talk about learning curve hehe. Still remember how satisfying it was to level that place.

But remember the situation changes very quickly. When you have fire superiority, all your enemies are pinned and doing very little return fire. Add in one more enemy squad that is unsuppressed, and suddenly one of your units is suppressed, and firing less. Which lessens the suppression on other enemy units, which leads to them putting out more fire, which leads to more suppression on you and less outgoing fire, which leads to less suppression of the enemy... etc. It is a positive feedback cycle that can flip the situation very quickly, and you go from pinning down all the enemy with impunity to guys too pinned down to withdraw in a surprisingly short time.

This is probably one of the reasons I have such a hard time justifying reserves in this game. Apart from Artillary shellacking my boys, or preserving ammo, I have yet to see a situation that in my mind, wouldn't be made better by an extra [insert appropriate CMx2 unit] ie: platoon of infantry, not a platoon of truck drivers.

I still struggle with this, I really want to use reserves against the AI, but I haven't been able to justify it....yet.

[Battlefront.com]

Hitler could not have implemented his horrible "skills" as strategic leader without a lot of help. I blame the senior German military leadership for enabling Hitler to screw up so badly. There are a few instances where German leaders defied "the Führer's will" and were forgiven after. Germany needed more men like Rommel, Rundstedt, and Manstein, less like Keitel and Jodl.

BTW, I have a similar opinion of senior US military leadership in 2001-2006. Instead of resigning in protest they served out their terms and wrote "tell all" books about how absolutely incompetent the civilian leadership was. Since they actively participated in that process they should be held equally responsible. Or in my opinion MORE responsible because one can partially excuse a civilian who has never served in the military for being militarily incompetent. Someone with 30+ years in the military can not make such an excuse.

But I digress

Whether it is tactical, operational, or strategic the concepts are the same. Do not wait too long to make a decision about either withdrawing or abandoning an attack. It is always very difficult to tell when the balance is tipped (much easier with hindsight), however I agree a good rule of thumb is:

"If you are wondering if maybe you should change tactics, you most likely should have changed tactics already".

Changing too soon is less likely to result in disaster than changing too late. One of the key elements of a successful leader is knowing when this magical time is and taking advantage of it in the context of the situation.

Steve

[Boo Radley]

Germany needed more men like Rommel, Rundstedt, and Manstein.

Steve

Hey! No they didn't! They needed less men like these and more men like Larry, Curly and Moe!

And throw in the Ritz Brothers, if you're feeling particularly cruel.

[argie]

I clearly remember that was Jerry Lewis who lost the war.

[Speedy]

And finding enough canned heat to generate 1.21 Gigawatts is a right be-utch

Awesome Canned Heat.

[Spinoza]

One and one's two

Two and two's four

I feel so bad 'cause I'm losin' the war!

[LongLeftFlank]

I'm still savouring the irony that a poster named MCAULIFFE dared to start a thread with the title "How to Retreat".....

[Magpie_Oz]

Awesome Canned Heat.

As cool as the boys in the band are :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterno_Canned_Heat

The real canned heat

[Magpie_Oz]

I'm still savouring the irony that a poster named MCAULIFFE dared to start a thread with the title "How to Retreat".....

Yeh, I was tempted early on to suggest "NUTS !" as the preferred method of retreat.

[Battlefront.com]

Hey! No they didn't! They needed less men like these and more men like Larry, Curly and Moe!

And throw in the Ritz Brothers, if you're feeling particularly cruel.

Point well taken

Steve

[McAuliffe]

I'm still savouring the irony that a poster named MCAULIFFE dared to start a thread with the title "How to Retreat".....

LOL, but you have to keep in mind that Gen. McAuliffe actually referred to the defense of Bastogne as being an half inflated balloon or punching ball. He could not have withstood the German onslaught if he had not made a tactical retreat in certain sectors. Better to have your men withdraw and fight another day then to hold the line until the last man has been killed.

I admit, eventually he didn't have much room anymore to play with, being the perimeter only a couple of clicks away of his HQ.

As already stated, retreating is kind of a art. I recall that during my compulsory service time, the reigning doctrine of the Belgian army was to fight delaying actions until Uncle Sam would come and help (...or turn W. Europe into a nuclear wasteland for that matter, as some were fearing)

Setting all philosophic and tactical considerations aside, I was actually looking for the best command in CMBN in order to sneak away.

[womble]

Setting all philosophic and tactical considerations aside, I was actually looking for the best command in CMBN in order to sneak away.

If you've got some Bocage that you're abandoning, Slow keeps your troops' heads down until they're not directly spottable and Fast gets them through the remaining speculative area fire overshoots as quickly as possible. Only works if the incoming isn't too withering though.