US rockets underpriced?

[Tigrii]

First off, my congratulations to BF for such a great initial release of the game. Secondly, your pardon if I missed a previous thread on this topic with my search. That being said, what's the deal with the US Xylophone rockets? They cost like 80 pts, and its like being able to call in an asteroid strike, its just complete devastation. Granted they're not the most accurate, but when you can turn like 15% of the map into a crater at one go that doesn't really matter.

So why so cheap, and why are Nebelwerfers so much more expensive?

[pcelt]

They are very cheap--you need to play with the Standard Rarity on to impose some restraint--(if you are playing German!!)

[wokelly]

Was the Xylophone even that common, I never heard of it before?

[Magpie_Oz]

Wrong musical instrument perhaps? Maybe the Calliope ?

But it is mentioned here http://lemairesoft.sytes.net:1945/weben/armes/artillerie/1803.html#116679

[Michael Emrys]

According to that site, it wasn't brought into use until the battle of the Huertgen Forest, which is well after the period covered by CMBN.

Michael

[Tarquelne]

They feel under priced to me.

But I suspect the larger the map, the longer the battle, the better the player, the less valuable they'll look. As a relative beginner playing short battles on small maps, the seem like the bomb. But better.

[Magpie_Oz]

According to that site, it wasn't brought into use until the battle of the Huertgen Forest, which is well after the period covered by CMBN.

read it again Mick, it says it was the first to be used but an entire battalion was equipped with it at the Huertgen Forest.

[Tigrii]

My concern is more with the gameplay consequences rather than the historical (in)accuracy involved. I would much rather have a game that was balanced and required strategy to win (not that I'm saying CMBN isn't of course) than one that was historically accurate but one side had overpowered units (e.g. Combat Mission: Hitler's Bunker vs. the Red Army). Of course both would be nice as well.

[LJFHutch]

I just tried them out, they seem ridiculous to me, surely they would be more expensive than they are. In terms of the game though, they're just plain madness, true they aren't that effective, but they got off all their munitions in 5 minutes with about 4-5 barrages that put so many rockets down their accuracy no longer mattered.

[MikeyD]

Both Xylphone and Calliope were originally in the game, then someone discovered a doc with the Calliope's in-theatre introduction date. Goodbye Calliope. I must say US military's going to get considerably more interesting come September-ish.

I can't say the Beta testers focused much attention on US artillery rockets. I don't have a clue what the price should or shouldn't be. I can't say I'm surprise they're not overly expensive. The Allied side seemed to have lots of everything while German side continually had to make do.

On the topic, you players who haven't played CMSF, you should try out Syrian army's Russian made BM21 hvy artillery rockets - holy crap, they can crater half the map in one go! :eek:

[Vanir Ausf B]

US rockets are so absurdly under priced that I can't help but wonder if at some point in development Steve's fear and loathing of QB unit prices got the better of him and he just started plugging in Bingo numbers

Compare the US T27E2 Xylophone with the German Nebelwerfer 41:

[U]US[/U]              [U]German[/U]


114mm              159mm

384 rockets        180 rockets

8 minutes delay    13 minutes delay

[B]85 pts [/B]            [B]351 pts

[/B]

When you have the ability to turn the other side of the map into the surface of the Moon for about the price of a halftrack, using rarity isn't enough. Their base price is so low the rarity hit is manageable on medium sized games and up. They should be banned altogether by agreement before the game starts.

[LJFHutch]

They should be banned altogether by agreement before the game starts.

And that's the problem with them unfortunately Personally, I'd use them.

[Mattias]

And that's the problem with them unfortunately Personally, I'd use them.

Personally I´d not. Buy a conscript forward observer (sans transport) and two conscript calliope batteries. Pre plan to have them fire with a 5 or a 10 minute delay at the positions where you logically can assume the enemy will be (not that hard on most maps). At a price of -less- than a regular rifle platoon you get 480 instant 114 mm rounds that are pretty much guaranteed to rain on anyones parade.

Nah, no rockets for me

M.

[PLM2]

I saw how cheap they were and assumed they sucked.... this is good information, i'll have to try them out.

[dieseltaylor]

It is kind of interesting that this rocket gets the coverage it does.

They made 2.5m rockets in the war so that is actually 30000 [*400] salvoes if we assume half went to the Pacific theatre where heavy bombardment form converted rocket firing LCT's made sense. However it is not clear how many rockets were used by the US Air Force who also used it. So making allowances for what was Stateside , in transit, in depot, with the US Navy, and with the Air Force, the number of times used for massed area bombardment must shrink dramatically. So cost wise and rarity it does seem a tad wrong.

Given its max.range was 4 km we can look forward to seeing Calliopes later : )

Details on the delivery systems here

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/TM/PDFs/TM9-394.pdf

For context the highest fire rate by artillery during a day in the BoB was 76000+.

As of 8 May 1945 there were a total of 238 separate field artillery battalions in the ETO, including:

Four 75mm howitzer battalions:

The 463rd Parachute, 464th Parachute, 601st Pack, and 602nd Pack;

Thirty-six 105mm howitzer battalions:

The 18th, 25th, 70th, 74th, 76th, 115th, 130th, 162nd Puerto Rican, 170th, 193rd, 196th, 241st, 242nd, 250th, 252nd, 255th, 280th, 281st, 282nd, 283rd, 284th, 394th, 401st, 512th, 522nd Nisei, 569th, 580th, 583rd, 627th, 687th, 688th, 690th, 691st, 692nd, 693rd, and 802nd;

Sixteen 105mm Armored Field Artillery Battalions (105mm SP):

The 58th, 59th, 62nd, 65th, 69th, 83rd, 87th, 93rd, 253rd, 274th, 275th, 276th, 400th, 440th, 695th, and 696th;

Seventeen 4.5" gun battalions:

The 172nd, 176th, 198th, 211th, 215th, 259th, 770th, 771st, 772nd, 773rd, 774th, 775th, 777th Colored, 935th, 939th, 941st, and 959th;

Seventy-one 155mm howitzer battalions:

The 2nd, 17th, 36th, 81st, 141st, 177th, 179th, 182nd, 183rd, 186th, 187th, 188th, 191st, 202nd, 203rd, 204th, 208th, 209th, 228th, 254th, 257th, 333rd Colored, 349th Colored, 350th Colored, 351st Colored, 521st, 550th, 665th, 666th, 667th, 670th, 671st, 672nd, 673rd, 686th Colored, 689th, 751st, 752nd, 753rd, 754th, 755th, 758th, 759th, 761st, 762nd, 763rd, 764th, 767th, 768th, 776th, 805th, 808th, 809th, 937th, 938th, 940th, 942nd, 943rd, 945th, 949th, 951st, 953rd, 955th, 957th, 961st, 963rd, 965th, 967th, 969th Colored, 974th, and 975th;

Thirty 155mm gun battalions:

The 190th, 200th, 240th, 244th, 261st, 273rd, 514th, 515th, 516th, 528th, 540th, 541st, 546th, 547th, 548th, 549th, 559th, 561st, 634th, 635th, 731st, 733rd, 734th, 976th, 977th, 978th, 979th, 980th, 981st, and 989th;

Six 155mm SP gun battalions:

The 174th, 258th, 557th, 558th, 987th, and 991st;

Thirty-eight 8" howitzer battalions:

The 194th, 195th, 207th, 264th, 529th, 535th, 578th Colored, 630th, 656th, 657th, 658th, 659th, 660th, 661st, 662nd, 663rd, 736th, 738th, 739th, 740th, 741st, 742nd, 743rd, 744th, 745th, 746th, 747th, 748th, 787th, 788th, 790th, 791st, 793rd, 932nd, 933rd, 995th, 997th, and 999th Colored;

Five 8" gun battalions:

The 153rd, 243rd, 256th, 268th, and 575th;

And fifteen 240mm howitzer battalions:

The 265th, 266th, 267th, 269th, 270th, 272nd, 277th, 278th, 538th, 539th, 551st, 552nd, 553rd, 697th, and 698th.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/artillery.aspx

[panzermartin]

Yes, thats my only complaint about QB pricing. 384 rockets for the price of a pair of 60mm mortars? Seems like a bug to me.

[Other Means]

Me too.

[gunnergoz]

Seems off to me, given how little use they actually saw in the ETO compared to all the regular tube artillery of the day.

[gunnulf]

If you add a 0 to the end of that price then it makes more sense. I bet somebody has made a typo and they should be 690 & 850 respectively. US rockets in Normandy were not very widespread unless this represents USN landing craft rocket barrages, in which case rarity should increase in july/aug44 like with warships.

Until fixed its got to be house rules really.

On a similar note 1,114,884 rarity for 12in battleship in july44 seems like somebody dropped pickles from their sandwich while developing too... I mean there was only one in theatre (USS Arkansas) but 1million rarity seems a bit OTT.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The rarity modifier for US rockets is already quite high. It's the base price which is low, which is based solely on battlefield utility.

[Oddball_E8]

i just had some fun with this in a quickbattle... bought one forward observer and the rest i put on rockets... and i had some 2500+ points...

it didnt matter what the german enemy fielded... it was always the same result... complete and utter destruction..

of course this is an extreme case, but still...

[Vanir Ausf B]

I hope it was against the AI...

[gunnulf]

I just can't find any evidence of their use in Normandy, other than mounted on LST support ships. I dont think a land based battery was deployed until later in the year, but would be interested to hear otherwise.

[cool breeze]

Just wanted to add my experience with them. Firstly, as everybody who has seen them knows, WHOLLY C@#p! I bought em the first time for a quick battle vs Ai and they got hella tanks and I got hella infantry with support but not much anti tank, anyway they take my town so I call in the rockets on it and of course Im hella impressed even though they dont do much damage to the enemy so I start another quick battle on a big open map this time with 4 rocket missions, one of each and two of one. Im defending and set up a preplanned to fall all over the areas they would advance through (i covered all approaches but they only went through one. I also had naval fire all of the over watch forest patches. And way they drove their whole army right through the middle of my best and longest rocket barage

salvo after salvo landing all over them. Im imagining them devastated. I cant see anything cause of the dust. I cant shoot anything cause of the dust. anyway i set up my force around the town in the middle of the map to block the attack but the objective was way behind me. The dust covered their entire advance into the town where I couldn't do much of anything. They went around my blocking town , straight through my rocket fire, and into the cover back area of the map and into the objective town. They were all in halftracks.

The riders took some casualties but it didn't seem like my fire did anything but scare and scratch and get em to avoid almost all my direct fire. Now if it had been an infantry not armored infantry it woulda been a lot different...... But there is a LOT of reason to pick 2 60 mm mortars over all that 10 tons or whatever of ordinance. But yeah still 85 Points or whatever does seem pretty dang cheap. But that might be so people use them. you cant really shoot at anything in the area of the barrage for a long @$$ time.

[Narses]

The Encyclopedia of British & US Tanks of WW2, pg 125, says, " While numerous rocket launcher mounts were developed for fitting to M4 series vehicles, very few saw operational use or reached production status." Goes on to say the T34 "Calliope" consisted of 60 4.6in rocket tubes. First used by 2nd Arm Div in France in August 1944.