Grenade against tanks

[Polo]

Have any of you got significant experience of infantry grenades against tanks.

In CMx1, I think we will agree on them being a bit overeffective. (won't we?)

What do you think of them in CMBN?

Polo

[MG TOW]

zip. notta. Not so far yet with open top tanks anyways. But I am not surprised with this as its closer to reality than the exception.

[Polo]

I've got 5 grenades at a Stuart lately, but the infantry squad prudently ran away before they could eye on the result.

That is something GREAT with CMBN, and something often overlooked: the possibility to withdraw without losing every man in the team, contrary to CMx1.

Polo

[MikeyD]

Back during the pre-release demo players were complainig about grenades being too effective against tanks. I guess its entirely situational-dependent. If you stop your Sherman right next to a patch of woods where enemy infantry is sitting something bad might happen. Me, I can't recall the last time I parked my tank within throwing distance of the enemy.

[RockinHarry]

In Busting the Bocage I had some german infantry dropping a "sticky grenade" at a Sherman just few meters beyond a hedgerow. It was a frontal hit and caused the Sherman crew to bail out. The odd thing was, the german infantry did not show to have any grenades at all.

I guess, this is similar to the abstracted "close aussault" in CMX1!

[Polo]

The odd thing was, the german infantry did not show to have any grenades at all.

It is probably because the grenades disappear from the inventory BEFORE they are actually used during the 1 min turn.

[RockinHarry]

It is probably because the grenades disappear from the inventory BEFORE they are actually used during the 1 min turn.

Could be so. Then they were most likely busy assembling a "grenade bundle", when they throw it later that turn. That would explain the effect on the Sherman. I later figured, the Sherman had track damaged and with that close proximity to german infantry, decided to bail out instantly.

[sburke]

Have any of you got significant experience of infantry grenades against tanks.

In CMx1, I think we will agree on them being a bit overeffective. (won't we?)

What do you think of them in CMBN?

Polo

You mean like this

The Wrong Tool

Poor Hans is confronted at close range by an M5 spitting bullets faster than his Grandmother spit tobacco. Unfortunately in his confusion he considered fragging his grandmother when he should have been thinking about the tank.

This guy didn't find it very effective.

[SlapHappy]

In testing the nahv. on the Tiger Tank against American Infantry, i found the plucky fellows could immobilize or destroy the tank about half the time. This was using only 2 groups of 3-man scouts. You definitely don't want to get your tanks too close to infantry unless your OK with some nasty surprises.

[gunnergoz]

A tank alone against determined infantry equipped with at minimum grenades and improvised weapons (e.g. stuff to jam the tracks, etc.) should, in my mind, fear for its survival. Yes, if the infantry lack confidence or luck and get caught in front of the guns or tracks, that is one thing, but if they manage to mount the tank and work on the various weak points in the armor (hatches, view ports, air inlets) with luck they should be able to find some way to force the tank crew to bail, at which time they will be most vulnerable to the infantry weapons. US WP grenades were said to be very effective for this sort of thing, like most WP weapons. Everyone fears fire and even in its absence, the tanks crew is forced to breath whatever noxious fumes do enter the turret and hull.

American tanks in the PTO had to deal with very pernicious (and often effective) attacks from Japanese infantry. While some were suicide missions, some were not. The point is that the Americans learned that tanks had to stick together so they could, if necessary, shoot infantry off each other with the tank MG's. Sending a Tiger, or any tank, alone into an area where enemy infantry abound is to ask for its sure destruction at some point.

[Bradley Dick]

"...tanks had to stick together so they could, if necessary, shoot infantry off each other with the tank MG's."

More commonly referred to in the world of armored fighting vehicles as "scratching your buddy's back."

[Hetzer21]

I've had a MkIV crew forced to bail by a bunch of grenades thrown at it. The crew were then mowed down by inf. I've not read of such an occurance in real life and cannot understand why any crew would do such a thing. Fog of war I guess.

[Magpie_Oz]

I've had a MkIV crew forced to bail by a bunch of grenades thrown at it. The crew were then mowed down by inf. I've not read of such an occurance in real life and cannot understand why any crew would do such a thing. Fog of war I guess.

Could be that the crew was reacting to a loud bang on the tank, not realising they couldn't be harmed by it as they wouldn't know if it was a grenade or a glancing blow from a AT gun, they just panicked and bailed?

[akd]

I've had a MkIV crew forced to bail by a bunch of grenades thrown at it. The crew were then mowed down by inf. I've not read of such an occurance in real life and cannot understand why any crew would do such a thing. Fog of war I guess.

When infantry attack tanks with grenades and satchels, it is partially an abstraction of close assaulting the tank. You'll note they only attack with grenades at very short range, not normal grenade range.

[eltorrente]

In the German campaign that I just finished last night, my platoon of grenadiers that I advanced toward a hedgerow stopped just short as they spotted a Sherman on the other side. I thought they were dead for sure, but two squads started throwing grenades at it - they must have hit it 10 times, then the crew bailed out and were gunned down quickly.

[gunnergoz]

We can make all sort of informed guesses about what will panic a tank crew in a given circumstance but none of us have actually been there to say what we did on the occasion. We are left with anecdotal evidence and our best WAG's of what is most likely. A somewhat liberal (and statistically variable) estimation of the range of likely crew behavior would seem most reasonable to me. Steve and the BFC guys seem quite adept at sorting out this sort of question. I can live with what they come up with.

[Polo]

When infantry attack tanks with grenades and satchels, it is partially an abstraction of close assaulting the tank. You'll note they only attack with grenades at very short range, not normal grenade range.

Really? So what is this range? (normal and reduced)

In CMx1, I 've got used to use 30m target arcs.

[Polo]

Actually, as always, I was asking, not to now about "real world" behavior, but more about in-game results... (but I sure am interested in your historical considerations)

Polo

[RockinHarry]

Really? So what is this range? (normal and reduced)

In CMx1, I 've got used to use 30m target arcs.

In my experience it was about 5m, just across the hedgerow.

[LongLeftFlank]

We can make all sort of informed guesses about what will panic a tank crew in a given circumstance but none of us have actually been there to say what we did on the occasion. We are left with anecdotal evidence and our best WAG's of what is most likely. A somewhat liberal (and statistically variable) estimation of the range of likely crew behavior would seem most reasonable to me. Steve and the BFC guys seem quite adept at sorting out this sort of question. I can live with what they come up with.

Agreed. However, from various tank crew memoirs, plus the (generalized) observations of a good friend who counsels veterans (of all wars) for PTSD, it seems that a major fear for tankers is burning to death while trapped in your tank. So if on top of the loud bangs and shudder, limited situational awareness and perhaps impaired mobility, your nostrils then fill with, say, the smell of burning petrol (severed fuel lines? jerrycans? Molotovs?), that could also create a tipping point into panic -- better to risk a bullet in the fresh air.

War is hell.

[gunnergoz]

Agreed. However, from various tank crew memoirs, plus the (generalized) observations of a good friend who counsels veterans (of all wars) for PTSD, it seems that a major fear for tankers is burning to death while trapped in your tank. So if on top of the loud bangs and shudder, limited situational awareness and perhaps impaired mobility, your nostrils then fill with, say, the smell of burning petrol (severed fuel lines? jerrycans? Molotovs?), that could also create a tipping point into panic -- better to risk a bullet in the fresh air.

War is hell.

So you find BFC's current tac AI inadequately describes tank crew behavior under stress?

[dumrox]

I've only had one encounter so far. Playing as Ami's, I was out of AT assets when a German StuG came calling. I had a platoon hidden behind bocage very close to the StuG's position. While the StuG was preoccupied with some unlucky troops a few hundred meters away. I split a squad and had each team approach the StuG from the rear (taking slightly different approaches). The squad got behind the StuG and tossed every grenade they had, seemingly with no effect. Shortly after the last grenade was tossed, however, the German crew bailed. The StuG was listed as "knocked out" and the assaulting squad was credited with the kill in the AAR. Whether the grenades truly damaged the StuG or just forced the crew to bail, I'm not sure.

[MikeyD]

I'm reminded of the film Kelly's Heroes. The German Tiger crew is compelled to surrender, begging the G.I.s to be careful because their tank was leaking fuel badly and was at risk of being set ablaze. So based on that reliable historical document one can imagine the smell of raw gas from splinter-punctured petrol tanks could get crews into a panic about roasting alive inside their vehicles. There are worse ways to die than just getting shot.

[gunnergoz]

So now we need CM:N to adopt "3-D smell-o-rama".

"Is that the K-rations you just ate or are we on fire?"

[BloodyBucket]

I just played out a quick battle where my glider infantry was confronted by two big AFVs. After some initial unpleasantness, I mortared the crap out of both of them with 60mm HE and managed to immobilize them both, a StuG III and a Panzer IV. Most of my bazooka guys were KIA trying to get within range, but some scrounging got me a usable tube and some rounds for it. Got behind the tank, zooked it and the crew bailed and were cut down in short order. I attacked the assault gun with a squad armed with grenades and at least one AT rifle grenade, seeing as it couldn't get to me. I couldn't kill the beast but the crew fled, and were killed after zapping one of my guys with a pistol shot. My newly minted tube guy then blasted it, using up his last round.

I thought the scenario should end, but nope. Went looking and found a third vehicle, an assault gun that was still mobile camped in between some hedgerows. No amount of scrounging could get me more bazooka ammo, so I attacked it with hand grenades...all I had left. Nada. Lost a couple guys who were too slow to get out from in front of the thing, and decided to ask for a ceasefire.

All in all, I felt good about how the game handled it. The tanks were bad news, but with the right weapons or when the beasts were stuck I could kill them, and when I was out of Schlitz at the end, It made more sense to call it a day then try to swarm a mobile AFV with with just small arms and hand grenades.