Contour lines

[Cymru]

I realize this is probably not doable (at least not easily), but I would love to be able to overlay contour lines on a map. One of the few things I was good at in my limited experience was the ability to determine LOS between any two points on a map. This saved a lot of trial and error in positioning observers and ordnance. One of the small frustrations with the game is trying to find out where a unit can be placed to see point X.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Some map makers have used slightly different ground colours for different elevations.

In a desert like grand canyon way this even looks good.

I didn't study the different terrain tiles yet, but in CMSF you could play with green and yellow grass, and with yellow and red sand, dirt, etc. The colour didn't have any game effects.

[bbaker]

Some map makers have used slightly different ground colours for different elevations.

In a desert like grand canyon way this even looks good.

I didn't study the different terrain tiles yet, but in CMSF you could play with green and yellow grass, and with yellow and red sand, dirt, etc. The colour didn't have any game effects.

In CMx1 I believe there were mods that varied the tile color based on elevation. There certainly was an extremely valuable mod that highlighted the edge of each tile, so you could see a grid superimposed on the terrain -- really made the 3d "pop." I hope whichever talented modders did those are still around (and can do the same thing in CMx2)!

[Steiner14]

I don't understand, how it can be that difficult, to give the most important ground elements (grass, fields, streets) a 2nd ground-texture, that can optionally be displayed with the push of a button.

To solve the problem with connected grid lines, illuminated single dots or small crosses instead of lines may be sufficient for a gradient impression? Could be easily tested by modding the corresponding terrain tiles.

[Hukka]

Color based on elevation like in CMx1 would be great. It would also make plain green fields more pleasing to look at.

[Other Means]

There's a gridded terrain mod around somewhere.

[bbaker]

There's a gridded terrain mod around somewhere.

Oh yeah, took a look over at CM Mods and found Mikewhl's mod for CMSF. I'm sure it will be in for CMBN in no time. Good news!

[sand digger]

Another seeker of contour lines here, they would help work out avenues of approach for a start. Bit surprised they or an equivalent are not standard.

[GreenAsJade]

I had thought that new illumination and other fancy tricks were going to make terrain shape easy to see.

This actually turns out not to be the case. In fact, due to the way that diagonal roads are narrower than perpendicular ones, you can have optical illusions where a road appears to be undulating, but is in fact just winding along flat (eg the tutorial).

Bring on the grid mod!!!

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

(One good thing is how the targetting line goes "through" intervening terrain, so if there is a small rise in the way, this kind of highlights it).

[~Viajero]

+1 for the grid mod! It will surely kill the beauty of Bocage Country but, who cares!

[Magpie_Oz]

LOL and so after months of debate in regards of the graphics in the new game we see finally what is really important to we sorry few !

[TrailApe]

The difficulty to accurately asses a good LOS is what you get in real life.

You hit the Op line and start looking around for a ‘good’ place to set up. Halfway through you think ‘over there looks better’ and you trek across to find out it isn’t. Lot's of heavy kit to hump around (man portable? - don't make me larff!) so no more messing about, this is it. Luckily this was a technical shoot, not a tactical one, so you didn’t have to deploy in the dark and crawl about like idiots.

Also a good LOS in the real world often comes with a huge compromise – if you can see them, they can see you. Do you ‘really’ want to get into the highest building around and look out of the window with a pair of bino’s.

‘Soldier, get up into that church tower and use It as an OP…’

‘Err – after you Sir’?

[sand digger]

What you get in real life is a lot more visual information than you will get in any game, that should be obvious. So to compensate aids like a workable LOS system are essential to at least make up for reality loss to some degree. Makes me wonder when basic knowledge like that has to be explained.

[Stingray]

Amen to contour lines or colored tiles. Having a very difficult time placing snipers and OP's. A means to determine difference in elevations will help.

Hope this is possible.

[Sirocco]

I was thinking the same thing during setup. If we could just have contours available during that stage alone it would be extremely helpful.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I usually move around the battlefield at the lowest level to get a good feeling of the relative heights before I start making my plan.

It is also a pleasant aesthetic experience with good maps.

[JonS]

Color based on elevation like in CMx1 would be great. It would also make plain green fields more pleasing to look at.

An interesting idea, but ...

1) How many discrete elevations were there in CMx1?

2) How many are there in CMx2?

[Dadekster88]

I'd like something like a grid system during deployment as well. Finding good sight lines etc is a lot of work and with bocage it makes the task even harder. Something that can be toggled on and off would be great or even something just for the deployment period which would disappear once you hit start. Having a grid while playing would be a bit cheesy, especially for this time.

[TrailApe]

What you get in real life is a lot more visual information than you will get in any game, that should be obvious. So to compensate aids like a workable LOS system are essential to at least make up for reality loss to some degree. Makes me wonder when basic knowledge like that has to be explained

Sorry, but I (respectfully) beg to differ. In real life you can’t hover 200 to 500ft above ground pondering on what position might give you a good view. You have to actually go to that point and try it out. Yes, you can do a map recce and pick out some likely spots, but most maps I’ve worked with have been 1:50 thou and they only will give you the broadest hints.

Many years ago, when I used to play soldiers, we would do a weekend at the Brigade Battle Group Trainer in Catterick, North Yorkshire. In a way it was a sooper doper version of Combat Mission played on a huge map the size of a squash court, however that map was of a local area, and the participants had to go out and recce the actual ground.

The battalion commander would get a ride in a gazelle and do the 20-100 ft hovering that we can do in CM and then come back in and brief the company commanders and give them the general areas he wanted them to position the companies. However, no gazelles for these lads, they then had to go out and physically recce the area the Head Shed had given them and decide where to put platoons and Milan Posts etc ,mark up their maps and then come back to the building and then deploy their dispositions on the big map. This recce phase was always most time consuming part of the whole exercise, it’s easy to draw big blue goose eggs on a map and label it X-Company, it’s a totally different kettle of fish to get out there and climb over fences and struggle through hawthorn hedges looking for the best place to put a GPMG.

Because this was done in ordinary countryside, not an MOD Training area, it was not a bleak barren wasteland with miles of flick all, it was prime arable land with hedges, trees, farms and villages all featured and screwing up good lines of sight. This was the same for everybody, not just the grunts, Artillery, Engineers and any armour support all had to do the same.

Not too bad if your with a ‘normal’ infantry or armoured unit (although supporting armoured units was a twat as you had to have MUCH bigger maps than if you were supporting infantry) with ready access to transport, however if you were supporting Para’s, very limited access to transport, even the Head Shed didn’t get his copter ride but had to make do with a short wheel base landrover, so ALL recce done on leather personnel carriers.

So I support this lack of ‘gimme an easy LOS finding tool’ as it adds to the realism and gives you an idea of how difficult it is to get that good spot that gives you all that you could ever hope for – everything has to be a compromise. Getting down to the grass level in CM does take more time than plonking things down from a god-like height, but it’s much more realistic. Only things that would make it more realistic would be to set the clock ticking as soon as you started, therefore your deployment time is limited and fight all of the battles on the join between two maps – don’t know how that could be successfully modelled though.

[GreenAsJade]

Sorry, but I (respectfully) beg to differ. In real life you can’t hover 200 to 500ft above ground pondering on what position might give you a good view. You have to actually go to that point and try it ou

In real life you die if you get shot.

CMBN is a game. Where from time to time we play at being the commander looking at a map. Maps have contour lines on them.

GaJ

[TrailApe]

CMBN is a game. Where from time to time we play at being the commander looking at a map. Maps have contour lines on them

GreenAsJade,

Good xxxxx (fill in the missing with words that equate to your local temporal conditions)) I readily agree, however contour lines - even on the most accurate maps - do not give you the whole picture.

Maps do play an important part in recce, but if you depend on maps as your sole method of selecting ground you are eventually going to find yourself in an embarrassing position.

Map recce gives you the broad picture, a vehicle recce usually confirms what the map has told you -if the map is accurate (a big IF) and then a foot recce should fill in the gaps.

However, if you don't bother with the vehicle recce, how do you know the ground will support any transport you may be bringing? How do you know that little stream that bisects the position is in fact just that, not a swollen torrent because the recent shelling has messed up the local drainage system?

I love maps and there's nothing easier than building a plan of attack on the assumption that the map faithfully reflects the real world, but how often do maps get updated? do maps reflect the ground conditions through all of the seasons? especially in a temperate climate like Normandy where there is quite a variation of weather conditions. So total dependence on maps without bothering to put boots on the ground is daft.

And yes it's a game and I don't jump into a muddy cold puddle and sit there cold and wet with the corpse of a bloated cow next to me whilst I play CM, (although our dog does tend to lie at my feet, and he is a bit old and odiferous) but at what point to do you scale down realism? What’s the point of having fantastically modelled game if it's got add ons, that in my opinion (and of course I may be wrong) detract from the game by making it too easy? Things like “gimme LOS tools” and “gimme a tool that can tell me that my tanks can cross without getting bogged” etc.

My opinion anyway.

Sorry if I sound a bit of a pompous fart - it's not easy being me:D

Oooh, this discussion has got me all frisky, in the great traditions of the British Army – I’ll think I’ll have a Brew – NATO standard (white with two sugars)

[Vanir Ausf B]

Hovering high above the ground in CMBN actually does not give you a good feel for elevation and contour. The terrain looks much flatter than it is when you get down at eye level. Changing that is the whole point of gridded terrain and other mods being discussed. Whether or not that is realistic is not my concern. The game is meant to be played while hovering high overhead.

[Pete Wenman]

Many years ago, when I used to play soldiers, we would do a weekend at the Brigade Battle Group Trainer in Catterick,

BGT Bovington for me - good memories

[Blackcat]

BGT Bovington for me - good memories

I am not surprised, Bovington is in a nice part of the country with nice pubs and a temperate climate. Catterick, on the otherhand, is the place where if God wanted to give England an enema he would stick the tube and has (had?), a Salvation Army pub with no beer, and a climate a bit worse than Norway (I remember one exercise which was called off two days early beacuse of the number of cases of hypothermia - kit designed for the German Plain just wasn't up to the job).