"Hunt"

[Cull]

Wait a second. Maybe "hunt" is the old "move to contact" and "slow" is the old "hunt"?*

That...kind of makes sense. I guess.

(Strangely, I just now noticed the "slow" command while playing my third and final demo scenario and thought "hey, that wasn't there before , was it?"*)

*in CMx1, I mean

[BDW]

I was wondering about this, too. I'm confused now. Does CMBN "slow" = CMx1 "hunt"? I was using the "hunt" command in the CMBN demo and my tanks kept stopping every couple of feet and doing nothing (not even firing). Sometimes I issue a "hunt" commant and the tank doesn't move at all. Kind of confusing. I was trying to "hunt" it to a hull-down position to take out the panther, but it would not work. So I tried using the move command and got taken out. need to figure out how to control these tanks better. understanding the commands would help. can a beta-tester chime in here?

[silverstars]

The hunt order in CMSF is a Move To Contact order, where you move at "move" speed until an enemy is sited. "Slow" is the vehucle moving without stopping at a speed slow enough for infantry to keep up with the Quick command. Incidentally, I find Slow to be a uniform speed even between different vehicles, so its a great option for moving convoys of differing vehicles.

[Vinnart]

on top of what i just said, do you see an additional slot for a movement command in the movement tab? i dont think there is a free spot.

There is plenty of room. It is just not optimized for RTS as it is now. The key to getting the most per key is the use of the Ctrl, and Alt keys along with root key commands. What this does is basely turn the keyboard into a nostomo N52 by using the Ctrl, and Alt keys as gears. I KNOW this is a good, fast approach from my competitive league play days playing the wwII RTS "Sudden Strike" MP online which used that system. Something like this would look more like TOW UI with orders having sub orders that are accessed via a small tab on GUI buttons, or accessed using shortcuts. The shortcuts are using Ctrl, or alt keys, and even Ctrl+Alt+Hotkey. This gives each key a max of 4 orders available for it. The layout would use the Q to B 15 button grid, but perhaps Q to N keyboard grid. All buttons easily accessed with the left hand due to proximity. Simple to learn, and build muscle memory since you are using a limited set of keys.

Examples:

You can access orders 3 ways:

Click GUI buttons to access sub commands of main root command by clicking corner tab like in TOW.

Or, hit space bar to bring up pop up menu command interface.

Or, use hotkeys + shortcuts:

Q key = QUICK

Q key + Ctrl = FAST

W key = MOVE

W key + Ctrl = REVERSE

E Key = HUNT

E key + Ctrl = SLOW.

This would be an optimal setup for fast RTS play. Of course the option to set individual keys for each order should be available as it is now.

[StoneAge]

Wego and RTS will use the comand diffrently

Wego Hunt = the old move to contact and die

I tend to use it only for the last 10 - 20 meters of a move to get the final positioning of a unit and then only if it will do the hunt command in the last 5 - 10 seconds of the turn.

ie. A tank moving up to a hull down position stops as soon as he can see the enemy. (should be a good hull down position)

[gunnergoz]

I had the impression that in the demo "hunt" meant look, and when you see something enemy, stop...and maybe, if you have opportunity, engage.

The trouble is, when the opportunity to fire goes, the tank stays immobile, a perfect target. I would prefer it resume its movement on the plotted "hunt" path.

BFC: possible?

[Peregrine]

Yes a different hunt command would be nice... but I still want a "move to contact" command.

Again the importance of armor arcs comes into play (since with an armor arc set your tank would only stop if it sees another tank/SPG)

I am guessing a lot of CMSF players were posting since this was the only mention of an armour only covered arc. I guess having a hunt (armour) and hunt (anything) commands would work just as well.

Actually I take that back. Armour only covered arcs would help with AT guns but I haven't seen the behaviour yet so this might not be a problem.

Haven't really tried "slow" before but that might work. Especially if upon seeing an enemy AFV the TAC AI decides it needs to stop and shoot rather than continuing to move slowly.

[Abrams]

Slow worked nice ... helped clear the board on the Road to Berlin ....

A "Hunt" that means more .."Search and Destroy" would be handier ....

[Peregrine]

I had the impression that in the demo "hunt" meant look, and when you see something enemy, stop...and maybe, if you have opportunity, engage.

The trouble is, when the opportunity to fire goes, the tank stays immobile, a perfect target. I would prefer it resume its movement on the plotted "hunt" path.

BFC: possible?

Sort of. The most aggravating problem is in a later stages of a scenario if you are attacking. If things are going well there will often be broken infantry units visible, retreating or sitting in the open that tanks don't bother to engage.

In this situation the unit will remain visible so even if the option to continue hunting was available (which it isn'y) the tank wouldn't because it can still see a worthless target.

Thinking of using slow for vehicles in these situations and see how that pans out. The killer for this will be if the tank doesn't stop if it sees another tank or for some reason spotting is worse than hunting.

[SMLE-Bloke]

I agree with Lemon, the current hunt command should be renamed to 'Move to contact' and we should get the old CM1 Hunt command back. Wherein your vehicle will drive along until it sees a threat, engage and destory(hopefully) said threat and then move on again.

[BDW]

I agree with SMLE-Bloke. Feels liek I have less control over my tanks than i did in CMx1, which is really suprising. I read in the demo CMBN manual, for the Hunt command:

"Vehicles - orders vehicles to advance slowly and observe the battlefield for enemy

contacts. Upon spotting a threat, such as another enemy vehicle or tank,

or when fired upon (even if the enemy is not seen), the vehicle stops immediately.

Note: in combination with a Target Arc command, Hunt is

restricted to only the area within the arc, and ignores

enemy units outside the arc."

The descriptions of the other movement commands Slow and Move, do not mention that the unit will stop and engage.

Therefore, it seems to me that it is impossible in CMBN to order a tank to hunt armor only, even with a target arc. However, I trust BFC did this for a very good and realistic reason. I'm eager to hear the rationale behind this. I am missing the control I had over the tanks in CMx1.

[Michael Emrys]

Therefore, it seems to me that it is impossible in CMBN to order a tank to hunt armor only...

Seems to me that it would be desirable to have them also engage AT guns or infantry with visible AT capability.

Michael

[SMLE-Bloke]

That's a good point Michael, I have noticed that a lot of squads in the demo have some sort of AT capability. Still I would like a 'Hunt armor' type command ala CM1, maybe added in.

[dieseltaylor]

There is plenty of room. It is just not optimized for RTS as it is now. The key to getting the most per key is the use of the Ctrl, and Alt keys along with root key commands. What this does is basely turn the keyboard into a nostomo N52 by using the Ctrl, and Alt keys as gears. I KNOW this is a good, fast approach from my competitive league play days playing the wwII RTS "Sudden Strike" MP online which used that system. Something like this would look more like TOW UI with orders having sub orders that are accessed via a small tab on GUI buttons, or accessed using shortcuts. The shortcuts are using Ctrl, or alt keys, and even Ctrl+Alt+Hotkey. This gives each key a max of 4 orders available for it. The layout would use the Q to B 15 button grid, but perhaps Q to N keyboard grid. All buttons easily accessed with the left hand due to proximity. Simple to learn, and build muscle memory since you are using a limited set of keys.

Examples:

You can access orders 3 ways:

Click GUI buttons to access sub commands of main root command by clicking corner tab like in TOW.

Or, hit space bar to bring up pop up menu command interface.

Or, use hotkeys + shortcuts:

Q key = QUICK

Q key + Ctrl = FAST

W key = MOVE

W key + Ctrl = REVERSE

E Key = HUNT

E key + Ctrl = SLOW.

This would be an optimal setup for fast RTS play. Of course the option to set individual keys for each order should be available as it is now.

Had me in stitches - funniest thing I have read this morning. Then I realised it is probably not an elaborate joke!

BTW playing WeGo I am finding that the tempo of the battle seems far more realistic in terms of my time to what happens on the battlefield. In that I am pausing men and assessing the next step more often than in CMAK. If this were CMAK it would be a 20 turn battle.

[Mattias]

The problem, as I see it, with the new CM:SF style Hunt command is that it slows down the WEGO game, or at least makes i less flexible. The fact that a hunting vehicle now will stop at pretty much anything, perhaps a few seconds into the move, means that I loose a large part of my (60 second) move. Also I can never use hunt as link in a chain of commands since most contacts (all?), no matter how relatively insignificant, will void all subsequent moves in the chain.

In CM1 the typical Hunt related contact would play out in one of two basic ways:

1. I am actually "stalking" an enemy tank. That is I am prepared to engage it whenever or wherever it turns up. In this situation I am actively "moving into a contact".

2. Hunt as part of a general advance, individually or a group. whenever a contact pops up I kill or suppress it, and move on, if the contact poses a real threat to me the Tac AI would act to get me out of there.

-And I always felt the Tac AI cared pretty damn near exactly as much for the lives of my men as I do. I have played CM1 to the bone over the years and I have never -ever- felt that the Hunt command has led me into trouble by "making the tank pushing on into a danger zone that it could not handle". Between myself being a reasonably sensible commander and the CM tactical AI the tanks don't just waltz into the killing zone with the idea that it´s invulnerable and the survival routine will kick in if the enemy turns out to be too much of a match.

There are no other examples to give because that is how I play it, as a "Active Stalk" command or as a "Cautious advance of the base of fire". Both these tactics are now quite severely hamstrung in the WEGO scenario. What I have found to be a bit of remedy, if not a cure, is the fact that in CM:SF, and now it seems CM:BN, the scenario length has pretty much doubled, decreasing the impact of the lost persistent in the Hunt command.

In summary the loss of the CM1 Hunt command is primarily a loss for a WEGO player. Personally though I have so far failed to grasp how the CM:SF style Hunt command has actually improved game play, even for RT-players.

Finally as a preemptive and hopefully redundant comment on my over all impression the demo I quote Cato: Ceterum censeo CM:BN est optimus venatus

/M

[WineCape]

Some valid points Mattias,

I sure would love to have a Hunt command for AFV's only and Armour arc's for AT guns. I can only guess why this was not included by BFC: Lack of programming time given other issues , difficulty, lower on priority list etc.

Only Steve can tell us if these features were ever contemplated for CMBN and then left out for whatever reason, and/or if they might, knowing the caveats we're not aware of, be included in future releases.

Steve, care to enlighten, if you have time?

If I missed his answer, apologies in advance.

[gunnergoz]

And maybe a "shoot only at infantry (or nearby AFV's if you have AT capability)" for the infantry and MG teams? Nothing like having your 30 cal MG open up at a German tank which, until then, had never noticed the MG's existence...

[Fetchez la Vache]

Finally as a preemptive and hopefully redundant comment on my over all impression the demo I quote Cato: Ceterum censeo CM:BN est optimus venatus

/M

Now write it out 100 times by sunrise or I'll cut your balls off. Hail Caesar.

[Mattias]

Now write it out 100 times by sunrise or I'll cut your balls off. Hail Caesar.

Another classic scene indeed Sir Guardian of the Sacred word of Python!

I wonder what Cato would have said to that

/M

[~Viajero]

Quick bump on this to see if anyone knows anyhting new. Did not find a BF answer to this yet? And the SF forum seems to also not have it, or maybe I missed it?

[Wiggum]

Maybe Battlefront hopes that we will forget this issues if they stay quiet long enough...

We need at least a Hunt command for AFV's only and Armour arc's for AT guns !

[~Viajero]

Maybe Battlefront hopes that we will forget this issues if they stay quiet long enough...

We need at least a Hunt command for AFV's only and Armour arc's for AT guns !

Be carefull with the armour arc request. IMHO it should be not only for AT´s but generic for any unit you want to give the order too (be it your AT gun, one of your AFV or even AT device armed infantry!).

As also mentioned by others, in my personal ideal world:

- Hunt command: unit stops when it sees a unit it can shoot... once target disappears your unit continues the move.

- Armour covered arc: it can be given to any unit! (guns, armour or even infantry)

- Move to contact: stops completely after enemy unit spotted.

Hunt command + armour covered arc order combo given to one of your AFV would therefore make the AFV to move until an enemy AFV is spotted (not infantry), attack it AND continue movement if all armour previously spotted disappears from sight. It would ignore enemy infantry.

[Mattias]

Maybe Battlefront hopes that we will forget this issues if they stay quiet long enough...

This is actually the closest I have felt to being in the presence of divinity. I humbly and gratefully accept all that I have been given. I cannot demand anything. Through contemplation and discourse I meditate on what it is that I truly desire and then I pray. I pray so that I through insight may better myself, so that i may understand the way of the gods. In the silent hope that the lords may hear me or that I may, in the end, as the saying goes accept that that cannot be changed. So sayeth the holy Manual. SeeEm!

It´s either that or throw a bug tantrum

M.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

This is a sorely missed option that we enjoyed from an earlier iteration of Combat Mission designed over 10 years ago! I cannot see why the original CMx1 Hunt functionality was not included with Cmx2 along with covered armour arcs. They were both so useful and commonly used and seems like a no brainer to me, especially since basic covered arcs already exist and the programing to halt a unit when it spots a threat is also there as well.

Regards

KR

[Catacol Highlander]

This is a sorely missed option that we enjoyed from an earlier iteration of Combat Mission designed over 10 years ago! I cannot see why the original CMx1 Hunt functionality was not included with Cmx2 along with covered armour arcs. They were both so useful and commonly used and seems like a no brainer to me, especially since basic covered arcs already exist and the programing to halt a unit when it spots a threat is also there as well.

Regards

KR

Agreed in full.