Infantry cant move trough small hedgerow ?

[snake_eye]

I have played Busting the bocage and been also surprised by the impossibility of the GI’s to cross, more or less low hedgerows. My first impression, was being stunned to see the guys running in the wrong direction to attempt to cross the hedgerow opening left in the middle of the field. BTW a pretty good place to get the guys mowed down by a MG-42.

Once I realized it, I froze their move and I used the breaching team to do an opening. Later, I used the Sherman with its hedges cutter device to go through it. It works pretty well. You might however, get into trouble your Sherman if a Panzershreck is hidden in the next hedgerow, but it is worth trying it if you are in a hurry.

To get back to the hedgerow, if no opening is made into it, even a small, one, you will definitively have to use the breaching team and or the Cullins device on the Sherman if it is fitted.

Thinking a bit more of that hedgerow problem, I can tell you that even the ones of a 1.00 meter height are very difficult to get through. I am leaving in the Normandy bocage, so I know what it is. When hunting, dogs don’t go through them, sometimes one tries to get over it while chasing a prey and get stuck on top of it. He ends up wounded.

If the hedgerow is taller, you can sometimes try to crawl, if it has fewer branches at the bottom. Once you try that, it is very difficult to crawl backward, if you can’t get through. You have also difficulties with your rifle which is cumbersome.

In all, the hedgerows of the bocage are more effective to hamper your move than barbed wire.

In that way, the game is close to the difficulty of movement found advancing in it.

Not the topic, but I had difficulties in seeing the grey icons with all that foliage. I used however the new facility removing at close range most of the trees foliage but the stump, since I was unable to control the movement of the squads of the platoon.

For a first try, I have been very much impressed by the game. It runs smoothly and I did not have the slow frame rate that I feared.

I got a draw ,5 KIA, 18 WIA against 24 KIA, 9 WIA for the Germans, no tanks destroyed and or damaged. Got on phase line blue hedge, on the right and passed phase line green on the left. I really thought that it could have been worse. Frankly, I did expect more losses, since I was attacking. I did not use the artillery, just 60 mm mortars. I have found the pre registered markers at the end of the game, that explain.

I am impatient to make a scenario once I get the game. The engagement distances are going to be smaller than with CMSF with the infantry and the foliages are going to be considered with the hedgerows differently

To wait for that game was really worth it. My thanks to B-F and the scenario designers

[mjkerner]

IRL, the Rhino was very effective, but I have read accounts where it took more than one "charge" to fully break up a really tough embankment and allow the tank to drive through.

That happened to me last night. One rhino appeared to be bogged going through bocage, but wasn't...it was wallowing, so to speak. I reversed and sent it in again and he busted through. God is this ever a well-designed game!!!

[Battlefront.com]

Not the topic, but I had difficulties in seeing the grey icons with all that foliage. I used however the new facility removing at close range most of the trees foliage but the stump, since I was unable to control the movement of the squads of the platoon.

I want to double check... are the icons drawing "over" the trees, or are you having to look for the icons "under" the trees?

Thanks for your first hand comments about Bocage. Our city based customers should take note that they won't find this in Central or Hyde Parks

Steve

[YankeeDog]

It's important to keep in mind that bocage was intended to pen in cows and horses. If a cow can't push it's way through it, and a horse can't jump over it, a human certainly won't be able to pass through it.

For Americans, it may be best to think of what my North Carolina relatives refer to as a "briar hedge." One of the things that makes it difficult to get over a barrier like this, even if it's only 4 feet high or so, is that you can't get any leverage by planting on top of it; your hand or foot just sinks in. And yet, you can't just push through it, either. Frustrating (and I speak from first hand experience here).

[Cymru]

Thanks akd !

Ok, looks like any hedgerow larger then knee-high can not be crossed by infantry, thats something to remember...

Also i would like to have the scenario designers use small holes in those hedges, that could simulate points where it is possible to jump over or go through as well.

But then it would not be true to reality. These are very dense growths *designed* to prevent animals from moving through them, so having small holes would be pointless.

Edit: Sorry YankeeDog, we must have posted almost simultaneously

[Wodin]

The hadgerows in France are totally different to the ones in the UK much bigger and thinker with a big earthmound...the Allies never took this into consideration and thought they'd be like UK hedges...

ANyway looks like there is a small hedge..so it's just a matter of perspective...we'll get used to it...just blow a hole in it...

[Wiggum]

But then it would not be true to reality. These are very dense growths *designed* to prevent animals from moving through them, so having small holes would be pointless.

Edit: Sorry YankeeDog, we must have posted almost simultaneously

Ok, but any kind of fence that can easily be crossed by humans also prevents most animals from running away...

So because a cow cant get through most fences in RL then maybe we should them make them a much harder obstacle ingame too ?

[YankeeDog]

Ok, but any kind of fence that can easily be crossed by humans also prevents most animals from running away...

So because a cow cant get through most fences in RL then maybe we should them make them a much harder obstacle ingame too ?

Sure. But your typical man-made fence style, like post and beam, is very climbable. So even very tall post and beam fence, like the 5' stuff we had around our horse paddocks when I was growing up, can be easily scaled by anyone with a modicum of athleticism.

Not so with Bocage. Bocage is strong enough to prevent a cow from "leaning" through it, but it still provides no good purchase for climbing -- your hands and feet just sink into it and get tangled up in the vegetation. So if you're by yourself without any tools, the only way to get over it is to free-hurdle it. Keep in mind it's also usually a good 3' thick, so it's a lot harder to hurdle than your typical track-and-field obstacle of comparable height. Not an easy task in full combat gear.

You might be able to worm your way under or through it, especially in a weaker spot. But this is by no means easy, especially with a firearm and ammo pouches, grenades, etc.

Now, I'm sure with a bit of assistance from squad mates, an infantryman could get over a section of 4-5' high bocage -- toe pitch, stand on a squadmate's back, whatever. But these maneuvers would be very risky in combat, and also raise the problem that, generally speaking, such maneuvers always leave at least one guy behind without anyone to help him get over. Very difficult for the game to simulate.

I mean heck, if you really think about it, IRL enterprising GIs might be able to scrounge some boards from a nearby farmhouse to create a makeshift ramp or ladder to climb over low bocage. But I really don't think the game needs to model this.

But I do think it's a valid point that low bocage especially would usually not be *completely* impermeable to infantry IRL. In addition to deliberate small breaches for farmers to pass from field to field, there would always be spots where the vegetation was a bit lower or weaker, or a small tree provided purchase to climb over, or whatever. So scenario designers should keep this in mind and rarely, if ever, present a contiguous, unbroken line of low bocage -- there should pretty much always be small breaches for infantry to pass through every few dozen meters or so.

Cheers,

YD

[Paper Tiger]

Wiggum

good luck vaulting over a thick hedge, mate. I hope there's a hospital near where you try it because the damage to your hand and wrist would be too horrific to contemplate

Fences, on the other hand, are another matter. For the most part, they're basically just very, very wide but short ladders .

[Erik Springelkamp]

In traditional landscapes in the Netherlands, they use thorn apple to grow through these hedges, and that makes them very nasty to climb or pass through.

In Dutch that plant is even called hagedoorn (hedgethorn).

[Wiggum]

But I do think it's a valid point that low bocage especially would usually not be *completely* impermeable to infantry IRL. In addition to deliberate small breaches for farmers to pass from field to field, there would always be spots where the vegetation was a bit lower or weaker, or a small tree provided purchase to climb over, or whatever. So scenario designers should keep this in mind and rarely, if ever, present a contiguous, unbroken line of low bocage -- there should pretty much always be small breaches for infantry to pass through every few dozen meters or so.

Thats what i mean.

Simulating "weak spots" in the hedgerow is important i think.

I can remember a situation where we took our Klappspaten and beat a thorn hedgerow to pieces so we could move trough. Was maybe 2m high and 1.5m wide but at least it was a "weak spot" (not so thick then the rest).

[snake_eye]

I want to double check... are the icons drawing "over" the trees, or are you having to look for the icons "under" the trees?

Thanks for your first hand comments about Bocage. Our city based customers should take note that they won't find this in Central or Hyde Parks

Steve

Hi Steve,

I played Real Time and I don't want to be a 100% sure for the German Icons, but many times it seems that they were partly hidden by foliages. These with a soldier displayed, were floating a bit higher and farther than the real location (that is the same with the green icons).

Some of them with an interrogation point are subdued, nearly transparent. I noticed them, when an M4 shot at a place, where I was not seeing the Icon at first look.

I am posting shots showing these, but unfortunately, I have not taken a shot showing a grey icon with a soldier on it

To be more precise, if I move the camera closer to the ground I am using the stumps (Alt-T) function to remove some foliage, since it is somehow as thick as real foliage found in the bocage thus impairing the view. That function is indispensable to be able to see something. Without it it would be nearly impossible to play in forest, the situation awareness being completely lost.

Bravo to all of the BF team and designers, very frankly for having done such a game. CMBO was fantastic on its days. B-N is even more fantastic.

Cheers

[Fetchez la Vache]

Same deal as snake_eye. Player (allied) icons sitting high and pretty all the time. German contact icons seems to start high when activated during the movement phase but drop low at the end of the move and stay low during the orders phase. Playing WEGO obviously.

[akd]

Same deal as snake_eye. Player (allied) icons sitting high and pretty all the time. German contact icons seems to start high when activated during the movement phase but drop low at the end of the move and stay low during the orders phase. Playing WEGO obviously.

It is simply that the "?" contact icons do not elevate above the terrain the way the unit icons do. I don't think it has anything to do with Allied vs. Axis. If you were playing at a higher fog of war level, you'd see the friendly "?"s down lower as well.

The "?" icons show the true (or suspected) location of the unknown contact (or last known location, which fades over time), so elevating them above the terrain would make it difficult in some circumstance to tell where the contact actually is or was located. With an actual unit (or the individuals in the unit that are visible in the case of enemy), you can see the unit beneath the icon when selected, so having the icon correspond to the exact location is not necessary.

[snake_eye]

It is simply that the "?" contact icons do not elevate above the terrain the way the unit icons do. I don't think it has anything to do with Allied vs. Axis. If you were playing at a higher fog of war level, you'd see the friendly "?"s down lower as well.

The "?" icons show the true (or suspected) location of the unknown contact (or last known location, which fades over time), so elevating them above the terrain would make it difficult in some circumstance to tell where the contact actually is or was located. With an actual unit (or the individuals in the unit that are visible in the case of enemy), you can see the unit beneath the icon when selected, so having the icon correspond to the exact location is not necessary.

I think you are right.

I have just finished playing "Close the pocket" in RL US side. Got a draw, no tanks lost. just the halftrack, on the German side 2 tanks 6 armored destroyed. Around 60KIA and 40WIA on either side.

It seems that the ? icons are staying low. The soldiers, armored cars, tanks .... are displayed higher depending on the foliage and trees being around.

It is still not that easy to make a relation between the icon and the pixel trooper you want to move; In one instance I had to remove all trees to finally be able to see a lone trooper.

The icons seems to behave the same way with US and or German troops.

I guess it needs from us some plays to get accustomed to the difference of color and of the related position (Icon -troops). Anyway, as I wrote it the Alt +T key is one of the answer when the foliage is too thick to see the troops in it.

I moved an M4 75mm with a camera view at ground level under trees to get it in ambush. I managed to do it without too much difficulty. I moved it slowly while checking the LOS and stopped it just at the edge of the treeline. That was good, because the A.I, later, got a flank shot into a Panther destroying it . God, I had not even seen that, looking elsewhere.

So finally my viewing difficulties in 2 plays are decreasing steadily. That is good news. Think it should be the same for other gamers too.

[LongLeftFlank]

I think many of you guys are grossly overestimating what it takes to move infantry formations (never mind vehicles!!!) through hedgerow country. That might be partly an issue with the maps as designed, or maybe not. But I am perfectly OK with bocage being effectively impassable under combat conditions.

The frustrations some of you are expressing (Why can't I have some guys scramble over the top of this stuff?) are perfectly reasonable. They are also the same frustrations expressed by the real men in the field.

Let's refresh on some historical testimony regarding the tactical properties of hedgerows, big and small:

First, the Gospel According To Green Book:

There were just three ways that our infantry could get through the hedgerow country. They could walk down the road, which always makes the leading men feel practically naked (and they are). They could attempt to get through gaps in the corners of the hedgerows and crawl up along the row leading forward or rush through in a group and spread out in the field beyond. This was not a popular method. In the first place often there were no gaps just when yon wanted one most, and in the second place the Germans knew about them before we did and were usually prepared with machine-gun and machine-pistol reception committees. The third method was to rush a skirmish line over a hedgerow and then across the field. This could have been a fair method if there had been no hedgerows.

Usually we could not get through the hedge without hacking a way through. This of course took time, and a German machine gun can fire a lot of rounds in a very short time. Sometimes the hedges themselves were not thick. But it still took time for the infantryman to climb up the bank and scramble over, during which time he was a luscious target, and when he got over the Germans knew exactly where he was. All in all it was very discouraging to the men who had to go first. The farther to the rear one got the easier it all seemed.

Of course the Germans did not defend every hedgerow, but no one knew without stepping out into the spotlight which ones he did defend.

It was difficult to gain fire superiority when it was most needed. In the first place machine guns were almost useless in the attack because about the only way they could be used was to fire from the hip. If you set them up before the advance started, they had no field of fire and could not shoot the enemy. If you carried them along until you met the enemy, still the only way to get them in position was to set them up on top of a hedgerow bank. That was not good because the German was in the next bank and got you before you set the gun down. Anyway, it had to be laid on the bank, no tripod, just a gun barrel lying unevenly on its stomach. On the other hand the Germans could dig their guns into the banks in advance, camouflage them, and be all set to cover the roads, trails, and other bottlenecks our men had to use.

A http://35thinfantrydivision-memory.com/site/index.php?option=com_content

&view=article&id=175%3Afirst-sergeant-bob-r-adams&catid=36%3Ales-veteran

s&Itemid=63〈=fr'>doggie's eye view, with some observations on bocage converted into a field fortification:

The German foxholes had been cleverly dug. Using every advantage of the hedgerow they had tunneled and bored into them from all angles so that only a direct hit from artillery could dislodge them. They were deadly elaborate in every respect. Abandoned machine guns had strings attached to the trigger so they could be fired at intervals without exposing the gunner.

Dugouts were constructed by tunneling under the hedgerow, and the entrance was covered with layers of hugs poles and dirt. The dugouts were equipped with mattresses and cooking utensils. These had been pillaged from French homes. Many of the trees were equipped with a ladder leading to a "crows nest" that was neatly camouflaged in the top of the tree for observation and sniping.

Every conceivable angle had been taken into consideration. How many more of these honeycombed hedgerows lay ahead only the Germans knew. Attacking such ingenious positions seemed futile.

[Abrams]

Exactly. As to crawling over, not a good idea with a bunch of eqpt on and the very real possibility of an MG 42 on the other side.

Hedgerows force players to use breaching (either by satchel or tank) and add this to the required tactical toolbox to win. IMO it enriches the game.

Agreed 100% !!

The troops in Normandy most likely wished they'd been omitted !

[Broadsword56]

Agreed 200%

Frustration due to poor interface, bugs, clunky design (not a problem in CMBN) = bad

Frustration due to realism and having to face what the actual troops/commanders faced = fun!

[Abrams]

It really allows a "historian" the ability to understand EXACTLY why the Cullen devices were rushed into service by front line troops and just how poor the Allies "intelligence" really was when the Allies hit the beaches ...

[Wiggum]

I will stay with LongLeftFlank on that one:

I think many of you guys are grossly overestimating what it takes to move infantry formations (never mind vehicles!!!) through hedgerow country.

Or with YankeeDog:

But I do think it's a valid point that low bocage especially would usually not be *completely* impermeable to infantry IRL. In addition to deliberate small breaches for farmers to pass from field to field, there would always be spots where the vegetation was a bit lower or weaker, or a small tree provided purchase to climb over, or whatever. So scenario designers should keep this in mind and rarely, if ever, present a contiguous, unbroken line of low bocage -- there should pretty much always be small breaches for infantry to pass through every few dozen meters or so.

[MikeyD]

I had posted this elsewhere. A reminder of what we're talking about

That second photo, that small opening in the bocage looks like there's an earthen base that's 2 1/2 or 3 feet tall with a hedge on top.

[Abrams]

Those aer good pics , MikeyD

A good source of info ...

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/resources/csi/doubler/doubler.asp

he hedgerows are sturdy embankments, half earth, half hedge. At their base, they resemble dirt parapets and vary in thickness from one to four feet, with heights that range from three to fifteen feet. Growing out of this earthen wall is a hedge that consists of small trees and tangles of vines and brush. This vegetation has a thickness of between one to three feet and varies in height from three to fifteen feet. Originally intended to serve as fences to mark land boundaries, to keep in livestock, and to prevent the erosion of the the land by sea winds, the hedgerows surround each field, breaking the terrain into numerous walled enclosures. Because the fields are small, about 200 by 400 yards in size, and usually irregular in shape, the hedgerows are numerous and set in no logical pattern. Each field has an opening in the hedgerow that permits access for humans, livestock, and farm equipment. For passage to fields that are not adjacent to regular highways, numerous wagon trails run through the hedgerows. The military features of the Bocage are obvious. The hedgerows divide the country into tiny compartments. The hedgerows in each field provide excellent cover and concealment to the defender and present a formidable obstacle to the attacker. Numerous adjoining fields can be organized to form a natural defensive position echeloned in depth. The thick vegetation provides excellent camouflage and limits the deployment of units. The hedgerows also restrict observation, making the effective use of heavy-caliber direct-fire weapons almost impossible and hampering the adjustment of artillery fire. Anyone occupying a high place that afforded good fields of observation and a clear view of the surrounding countryside would have a distinct advantage.....

he formidable barriers presented by the hedgerows and the military characteristics of the Bocage seem to have taken First Army by complete surprise. Despite Allied planners' awareness of the nature of the Bocage, American commanders had done little to prepare their units for fighting among the hedgerows. Preoccupied with the myriad problems of the D-Day landings, American leaders had failed to see the battlefield in depth and had paid little attention to the potential problems of hedgerow combat. As early as 8 June, General Bradley called the Bocage the "damndest country I've seen." General Collins of VII Corps was equally surprised by the nature of the hedgerow terrain and told General Bradley on 9 June that the Bocage was as bad as anything he had encountered on Guadalcanal. Brigadier General James M. Gavin, the assistant division commander of the 82d Airborne, best summarized the surprise of the senior American leadership: "Although there had been some talk in the U.K. before D-Day about the hedgerows, none of us had really appreciated how difficult they would turn out to be."2 ....

[Abrams]

...they totally ruin the immersion and destroy tactics that would most likely work in real life.

That's EXACTLY what happened in Normandy !

American infantry commanders soon realized that normal tactical maneuvers were impossible in the Bocage

yep , damn Bocage ruined the American tactical plan ...

Unable to use normal techniques of fire and maneuver, American commanders were also powerless to influence the battle with increased firepower. Heavy vegetation and the close proximity of the German defenders made it impossible to bring forward and set up heavy machine guns. Company commanders used their organic 60-mm mortars in an attempt to knock out German machine-gun positions. However, the hedgerows and the close combat conditions made the observation and adjustment of mortar and artillery fire almost impossible.

also may explain why the indirect mortars seem to fall willy nilly ??

These soldiers are crouching behind bushes on top of a hedgerow ... definitely not easily maneuvered terrain ...

Feels as though BF has the "feel" for the battle as the reports I've read "feel"

[MikeyD]

Slightly off topic, but one thing that struck me in those two photos of mine - look at how lean those soldiers are. They're as skinny as rakes. I'm reminded how one vintage equipment retailer dislikes putting his uniforms on modern day reenactors because we're all so frickin' chubby in comparison.

[Abrams]

Thats when "we" were farmers , mechanics , steel mill workers ... LABORERS !!

I have my grandfathers US Cavalry Artillery Uniform ...

he was "stocky" back in the day ... now he'd be normal ...