Infantry cant move trough small hedgerow ?

[Wiggum]

Looks like infantry cant move even trough small (1.5m high) hedgerow which feels a bit stupid.

I would understand if such a obstacle would slow them down but come on, at least you should get through it without have to run around...

The infantry jumps over fences and walls so why they have such problems even with low hedgerows ?

The scenario designer have to be very careful using them, they will block movement just like a river and forcing the player to move around and into kill zones which feels like bad design if you ask me.

So, why are small hedgerows such obstacles for infantry ?

[GDog]

I agree, but there is likely not an easy fix or I am sure they would have implemented it. Have to carefully look for an opening in the vegetation. I lost a lot of good young soldiers to this last night, poor bastards didn't have a chance!

[Wiggum]

If there is no fix then i would advise the scenario designers to not use them at all because they totally ruin the immersion and destroy tactics that would most likely work in real life.

[Fetchez la Vache]

I guess it's because those hedgerows are meant to represent those found in farmland in Northern Europe, or at least before Agri-combines bulldozed them in the name of efficiency. These would have been old, established, hedgerows made up of intertwined woody shrubs (e.g. hazel) which have been trimmed and controlled over the years to form strong barriers to prevent large farm animals breaking through. And soldiers. These are not ornamental leafy bushes. Making such hedgerows is a dying skill nowadays. :-(

There are still quite a few 1.5m hedgerows left in South Dorset, where my family comes from. I can tell you that I would have trouble breaking through some of those without the aid of a chainsaw. You wouldn't be able to simply push through, they are solid walls of wood. However I think it would be possible to "jump" over them with the help of a leg-up from a couple of mates, although you'd pretty scratched up in the process.

I personally find it perfectly understandable that they are modeled this way in-game.

[drtechno]

Yes this threw me off in the demo for the first 5 minutes. I issued a slew of movement orders and proceeded to watch my infantry run all over the map doing crazy things. It wasn't for a couple minutes that I moused over the small hedgerows and realized that I couldn't plot movement into it.

[The_Capt]

I guess it's because those hedgerows are meant to represent those found in farmland in Northern Europe, or at least before Agri-combines bulldozed them in the name of efficiency. These would have been old, established, hedgerows made up of intertwined woody shrubs (e.g. hazel) which have been trimmed and controlled over the years to form strong barriers to prevent large farm animals breaking through. And soldiers. These are not ornamental leafy bushes. Making such hedgerows is a dying skill nowadays. :-(

There are still quite a few 1.5m hedgerows left in South Dorset, where my family comes from. I can tell you that I would have trouble breaking through some of those without the aid of a chainsaw. You wouldn't be able to simply push through, they are solid walls of wood. However I think it would be possible to "jump" over them with the help of a leg-up from a couple of mates, although you'd pretty scratched up in the process.

I personally find it perfectly understandable that they are modeled this way in-game.

Exactly. As to crawling over, not a good idea with a bunch of eqpt on and the very real possibility of an MG 42 on the other side.

Hedgerows force players to use breaching (either by satchel or tank) and add this to the required tactical toolbox to win. IMO it enriches the game.

[Paper Tiger]

I have had numerous experiences of trying to force my way through a small agricultural hedgerow and had no success except where there were natural breaks. It really is unbelievably frustrating when it happens and one time I had to backtrack for a couple of miles to get to where I wanted to go.

Now the hedgerow between my Mum's house and my neighbours? Different story . Totally permable to small children and teenagers. I suspect, at 51, I could still just about manage it today. But that's LOW bocage in the game, not a hedge.

[Wiggum]

To make this clear, we are not talking about the bocage or dense 3m hedgerow.

Im talking about the small (looks ingame like 1.5m) hedgerow.

Being a soldier by myselfe for over 2 years i had go through and over some hedgerows and know that it can slow you down massiv but much better then getting into a kill zone by running around it.

At least they maybe should look a bit more like a obstacle ingame, just by lookinmg at them most players think that infantry can cross them like walls ar fences.

[akd]

There are three types of hedgerows: hedge, low bocage and bocage. Infantry will cross hedges, but they still see it as an obstacle and may seek an obstacle-free alternate path if it is available. If you want to be sure they cross the hedge, you need to give them waypoints just to either side.

Part of team crossing hedge, while other members of the team are making for a nearby gap in the adjacent "low bocage":

Also, you can clearly see the proportions of the "low bocage" beyond the hedge in the foreground. It is certainly no trivial obstacle.

[Chad Harrison]

To make this clear, we are not talking about the bocage or dense 3m hedgerow.

Im talking about the small (looks ingame like 1.5m) hedgerow.

Being a soldier by myselfe for over 2 years i had go through and over some hedgerows and know that it can slow you down massiv but much better then getting into a kill zone by running around it.

At least they maybe should look a bit more like a obstacle ingame, just by lookinmg at them most players think that infantry can cross them like walls ar fences.

There was a quote from a paratrooper who on D-Day night was fired upon and wanted to get through a short, but thick hedgerow. He dived and it stipped him of all his equipment, cut him up pretty badly and even broke a bone I believe.

A Normandy game would not be a Normandy game without Bocage that requires you to completely rethink how you fight. If you dont like it, there will be plenty of maps without it. As mentioned above, after all my reading, I find how they are represented very, very accurate - high or small ones.

Chad

[Wiggum]

Thanks akd !

Ok, looks like any hedgerow larger then knee-high can not be crossed by infantry, thats something to remember...

Also i would like to have the scenario designers use small holes in those hedges, that could simulate points where it is possible to jump over or go through as well.

[Mistah Kurtz]

The issue - for a new player - is that it looks like a hedgerow the troops can pass. The "high bocage" is an obvious barrier.

But it's only a problem the first time you encounter it.

[Rayak47]

Hey guys, I'm having trouble finding a clear breakdown of terrain, how it looks and it's effects. Admittedly, I’ve only scanned the manual and index a few times looking for it, but is seems like it is not listed all in one place. You have to look at the editor section to see what the terrain looks like, then find terrain effects elsewhere in the manual. Am I missing a table somewhere that puts it all in one place?

[DeutschRitter]

I know that I can breach the bocage with demolitions. Can I also breach to a bocage using a tank? I thought tanks can breach?

[akd]

I know that I can breach the bocage with demolitions. Can I also breach to a bocage using a tank? I thought tanks can breach?

US tanks equipped with "Rhino" plows can breach "bocage" and "low bocage". You will see "Rhino" in the tank designation and big sawtooth attachments on the front of the tank, but these aren't available at all early in the Normandy campaign. In the demo, "Rhino" tanks are in "Busting the Bocage".

All tanks can run over simple hedges.

[Flanker15]

I know that I can breach the bocage with demolitions. Can I also breach to a bocage using a tank? I thought tanks can breach?

Yeah US tanks with rhinos will go through bocage.

On topic: there are 3 types of hedge in the game, 2 types of bocage (one low) and normal hedge which inf can go through.

[MikeyD]

Sounds to me like complaint should be that low bocage should look as beefy as it is, not that is should be as wimpy as it looks. This is classic Normandy bocage country with all the notorious difficulties associated with fighting through it.

I'm having trouble finding a clear breakdown of terrain, how it looks and it's effects

- Tall walls and bocage need to be breached to get through. Tanks with Rhino plows can cut through the bocage (starting in July). Low rural stone walls can be crushed by tanks.

- Water is unpassable. Deeps ford and shallow ford are difficult to spot (gravel banks are the giveaway). Both are passable to infantry, vehicles can pass through shallow ford. You can't tell which is which until you try.

- Hvy forest base terrain and marsh are unpassable to vehicles but passable to infantry. Light forest base terrain is passable to both, again difficult to distinguish light from hvy by sight.

- everything else is (except steep cliff faces) passable. Mud on a 'wet' day is something of a danger to try to drive over.

[sawomi]

Also - all bocage can be destroyed with HE-shells from tank cannons, arty, bombs (dropped by planes), Inf/AT-guns etc.

-> But it will cost time, ammo and surprise-effect...

(...against human opponents at least for the last one).

[sawomi]

US tanks equipped with "Rhino" plows can breach "bocage" and "low bocage". You will see "Rhino" in the tank designation and big sawtooth attachments on the front of the tank, but these aren't available at all early in the Normandy campaign. In the demo, "Rhino" tanks are in "Busting the Bocage".

All tanks can run over simple hedges.

I play all demo-scenarios apart from the tutorial now as pbem. So I don't want to check this scenarios now for testing purposes. My question is:

Can bocage in the game made very hard/impossible to cross for Rhino-Shermans?

-> things like putting big trees in bocage (trees can be destroyed with lots of HE with the main gun of the tank, but can they stop a 'Rhino-Ronson' to just drive through?)

-> best trick for scenario designers to 'secure' a bocage against tanks would be with trees and walls to make it very hard to cross, I think. (at least improved chance for immobilisation)

I'm only loud thinking. When the full game arrives there will be lot of time to test such things in detail with the editor. :]

[Rayak47]

Thanks. I've beem avoiding bare patches in the grass thinking they may be wet spots slowing movement/increasing fatigue. I think the tutorial is going to be where I experiment with all the terrain and it's effects regardless of casualities. Wish I had a good 'ol terrain effects chart!

[akd]

I play all demo-scenarios apart from the tutorial now as pbem. So I don't want to check this scenarios now for testing purposes. My question is:

Can bocage in the game made Very hard/impossible to cross for Rhino-Shermans?

Yes, if you place the bocage on top of a "marsh" or "hvy forest" tiles, even Rhinos will not cross.

The AI does not consider the 3D trees for purposes of allowing or disallowing movement. If you want to prevent vehicles from crossing areas where you have placed dense trees, you need to place the trees on top of "hvy forest" tiles.

[MikeyD]

Ooooh, yes. Actually, in a couple instances map makers inadvertantly placed hvy forest tiles beneath their bocage and drove players crazy for awhile. I think players will consider hvy forest tiles under bocage a dirty trick more than a legitimate map design choice.

[sawomi]

How functional was this 'rhino'-thingy in real life? Where there incidents, where it failed to breach a REALY strong bocage?

Will 'Rhino'-Shermans be able to break walls, gates (and houses ?) more easely in the game?

[YankeeDog]

How functional was this 'rhino'-thingy in real life? Where there incidents, where it failed to breach a REALY strong bocage?

Will 'Rhino'-Shermans be able to break walls, gates and houses more easely in the game?

The Rhino was specifically designed to cut into the earthen embankment of a bocage and cut up the roots, so I don't think it would improve the tank's ability to punch through walls and the like very much, if at all. I've never read of them being used for this purpose, at least.

IRL, the Rhino was very effective, but I have read accounts where it took more than one "charge" to fully break up a really tough embankment and allow the tank to drive through. I suppose it is possible that there were specific embankments that were just too thick and/or steep for the Rhino tanks to breach. In any event, I think this would be a pretty rare thing.

[Battlefront.com]

The Rhino was one of those inventions that was a true fix for a big problem. Up until the invention it was nearly impossible to breach Bocage except for operations that were carefully planned and well executed. The Rhino changed all of that.

The biggest criticism I've seen about the Rhino is that it basically game too late. The argument is that the operational level breakthrough would have happened within a few weeks anyway because the Germans were running out of hedgerows to defend. So at best the Rhino shortened the US misery but didn't significant affect "The Big Picture" much. That's a defendable criticism of the historical significance of the Rhino, not a criticism of the tactical effectiveness. I've not seen that called into serious question.

Map making tip...

When I place "Breaks" in my Low Bocage and Bocage I put a Dirt terrain tile under it. This has no effect on the character of the terrain, but it does give the player a little more hint (visually) that there is a break at that particular spot.

Steve