Soft factors: Fitness = Fatigue?

[Broadsword56]

Just wondering if this can be clarified...

The manual's soft factors section lists "Fitness" and its various states: Fit, Weakened, Unfit. (Is it just these 3 levels)?

But is there also a specific factor called "fatigue?" or is this what the Fitness factor is intended to represent?

Because in game screens (or am I just remembering from CM x1) I recall seeing units data displays that showed the unit was "tired" at some point in a battle, such as after running a lot.

If there are fatigue states, can they be set in the editor? And what are the states?

[mjkerner]

Those are the ones in CMSF, Broadsword56. And they can be set in the editor --fit, weakened, unfit. Not "tired" etc., IIRC

[Sergei]

Fitness tells how much exhaustion a unit can take before they're out of breath. Base morale works in the same way - a fanatic unit will be very hard to rattle.

The current state of the unit begins from rested, goes through ready to tiring etc. all the way to exhausted (or fatigued, I forget).

[Field Marshal Blücher]

Fitness is not equal to fatigue, but it's very, very closely related. Basically, fitness is the general level of conditioning of the troops. So "Fit" troops will tire more slowly, whereas "Unfit" troops will become exhausted very quickly if they have to do any strenuous movement. Fatigue is accounted for separately, but is very closely related to fitness. There are several fatigue states, but they cannot be set in the editor. The states are "Rested," "Ready," "Tiring," "Tired," and "Exhausted."

EDIT: OK, three answers that all said different things! YAY!

[Broadsword56]

Wow, thanks for such quick and detailed answers, y'all!

So to use a sports analogy: Athletes start every new game "rested," and fatigue progresses as they play. But the more "Fitness" they start the game with with, the better they can resist fatigue as they play.

Great concept, looking forward to seeing how it works.

Let's say I wanted to simulate a battle where a battalion that's been fighting all day is ordered to make one last hasty attack before nightfall. I should make them "weakened" or even "unfit," depending on how tired they'd be. In the battle, I'd expect to see more units fatigue faster, getting to "tired" and "exhausted" after fairly little fighting/movement.

How would that fatigue look on the battlefield? Faster to become suppressed/panic/rout? Slower movement or failure to move at all? Less accurate shooting?

[A Canadian Cat]

How would that fatigue look on the battlefield? Faster to become suppressed/panic/rout? Slower movement or failure to move at all? Less accurate shooting?

Well in the CM1x engine you would be correct. The more tired your troops are the easier it is for the opposition to pin them, cause panic etc. They will also move slower in a sense; tired or exhausted troops will only walk even though you gave them a run order. I am not sure about shooting accuracy though - hard to tell that in the game. I strongly suspect the CM2x engine will behave similarly.

I usually try to let my guys at least get to OK or Ready before getting into contact. If they get tired getting into position or sneaking around under fire it is a good idea to give them some down time before pressing a final assault. Otherwise bad things will happen. Down time does not have to be away from the front. Covering an area from a position of cover for a turn or two is enough to let them rest.

Ian

[Broadsword56]

Motivation levels according to the maual range from "Fanatic" to "Poor."

What are the specific levels there, and how many are there?

[ChrisND]

Motivation levels according to the maual range from "Fanatic" to "Poor."

What are the specific levels there, and how many are there?

Poor

Low

Normal

High

Extreme

Fanatic

[gunnersman]

The troops in CMSF can go beyond "Exhausted" to "Fatigued".

So its:

Rested

Ready

Tiring

Tired

Exhausted

Fatigued

I know. I've done it. Many times.

[MikeyD]

People used to prefer fighting with fanatics or extreme in an effort to reduce cowering and panicing. But CMs refined the fight/flight responses of units so that your normal and high units might be able to automatically extract themselves from a difficult situation to continue the fight while fanatics are more likely to simply die guns blazing.

[Barkhorn1x]

People used to prefer fighting with fanatics or extreme in an effort to reduce cowering and panicing. But CMs refined the fight/flight responses of units so that your normal and high units might be able to automatically extract themselves from a difficult situation to continue the fight while fanatics are more likely to simply die guns blazing.

Love it - they're FANATICS - they ain't going anywhere!!

[Broadsword56]

This all sounds fantastic, and should greatly improve the way infantry combat is simulated.

Since we're talking soft factors here, how would you rate overall the units that actually fought in Normandy in CMBN terms, circa July 11, 1944)? We're talking general terms here, since obviously a particular company or battalion might differ...

Leadership: I'd make US units 0 (on the -2 to +2 scale). German units +1, because they still hadn't lost their core of superior battle-hardened NCOs with Ostfront experience at this point in the war.

Experience: From what i've read it was pretty equal here between the US 29th ID and the German 352nd ID, both "Veteran" I'd say by this point. (On D-Day the US troops would of course have had less experience, but by July 11 and the drive on St. Lo they'd been slogging in the hedgerows for awhile). The US 35th ID didn't land on D-Day and was inexperienced, but had been trained so I'd rate them "Regular." And the German paratroop units (3FJ, etc, when we get them in a module), I'd rate as "Crack" (saving "Elite" for the SS).

Motivation: This is situation-dependent, but as a default starting level I'd say US units would rate "Normal." German 352nd ID and regular Wehrmacht would be "High" (a little more motivated because now they're defending the European mainland and they aren't convinced the war is lost yet), FJ units "Extreme" and SS units "Fanatic."

[gunnersman]

Back to your original question and to help answer your second question about a "one last hasty attack" as it were, you can set your units up as "weakened". When you "deploy" the units on the map in the editor they will show up as "rested", HOWEVER with a (-1) next to the "rested" status to indicate their weakened state.

Does that sound like what your looking for?

[Broadsword56]

Back to your original question and to help answer your second question about a "one last hasty attack" as it were, you can set your units up as "weakened". When you "deploy" the units on the map in the editor they will show up as "rested", HOWEVER with a (-1) next to the "rested" status to indicate their weakened state.

Does that sound like what your looking for?

Yes, that captures it exactly.

[sburke]

Experience: From what i've read it was pretty equal here between the US 29th ID and the German 352nd ID, both "Veteran" I'd say by this point. (On D-Day the US troops would of course have had less experience, but by July 11 and the drive on St. Lo they'd been slogging in the hedgerows for awhile). The US 35th ID didn't land on D-Day and was inexperienced, but had been trained so I'd rate them "Regular." And the German paratroop units (3FJ, etc, when we get them in a module), I'd rate as "Crack" (saving "Elite" for the SS).

Motivation: This is situation-dependent, but as a default starting level I'd say US units would rate "Normal." German 352nd ID and regular Wehrmacht would be "High" (a little more motivated because now they're defending the European mainland and they aren't convinced the war is lost yet), FJ units "Extreme" and SS units "Fanatic."

Not sure I would rate the SS better than the FJ. In terms of the SS, rating them as Elite is an assumption that I don't think necessarily holds across the boards so much as Fanaticsm. The difference I see between the two being not all SS units necessarily fought tactically well, but would be willing to accept higher casualties. I believe that was one of the major criticisms of the Waffen SS by the Wehrmacht. Not having tried the game yet we will see how the various factors work together. From the US perspective, the 2nd Panzer was rated as one of the toughest divisions they faced IIRC from some material I was reading from the Bulge combat.

[James Crowley]

The troops in CMSF can go beyond "Exhausted" to "Fatigued".

So its:

Rested

Ready

Tiring

Tired

Exhausted

Fatigued

I know. I've done it. Many times.

At the risk of being pedantic I would say, purely from an English-usage pov, that 'exhausted' should be the ultimate state, following on from 'fatigued'.

[Dietrich]

Experience: From what i've read it was pretty equal here between the US 29th ID and the German 352nd ID, both "Veteran" I'd say by this point. (On D-Day the US troops would of course have had less experience, but by July 11 and the drive on St. Lo they'd been slogging in the hedgerows for awhile). The US 35th ID didn't land on D-Day and was inexperienced, but had been trained so I'd rate them "Regular." And the German paratroop units (3FJ, etc, when we get them in a module), I'd rate as "Crack" (saving "Elite" for the SS).

Well, there's elite (the very best soldiers, with the best equipment, the best training, and the highest motivation, i.e. commandos) and then there's "elite" (somewhat better than the run-of-the-mill troops but not the best). I would reserve Elite for units which are actually the best in their respective armies; for instance, if I were making a Pointe du Hoc scenario, I probably set the Rangers as a mix of Veteran and Crack with fairly high leadership/morale modifiers. FJ are "elite" in the generic, layman sense, but I wouldn't consider them "elite" in an on-par-with-commandos sense. The same with the Waffen-SS; they're highly motivated and well equipped, with a core of veteran NCOs, but I would set them generally at Veteran with good leadership and morale modifiers. But that's just my reckoning. I can't claim to have read hundreds of books about the fighting in Normandy like each of y'all have. =P

At the risk of being pedantic I would say, purely from an English-usage pov, that 'exhausted' should be the ultimate state, following on from 'fatigued'.

Correct. In the UI, Exhausted is highlighted in red, whereas Fatigued, like Tired, is highlighted in yellow.

[Battlefront.com]

This is how I would describe 12th SS PzDiv:

Experience -> Regular to Veteran as average units. I'd bump the HQs up a bit though.

Leadership -> tending towards positive numbers

Fitness -> Fit

Motivation -> ranging in the positive territory, but with some Fanatic

Any option that allows for better equipment would be reasonably taken, or at least tending towards the best.

Logic behind the above? The rank and file of the 12th SS were largely inexperienced, but well trained, physically fit youth with heavy indoctrination. They were armed with better stuff, in larger quantities, than most other units in Normandy. And that made them a formidable foe. Very formidable. But "Elite" in the sense of everybody running around like they're the most deadly soldiers in the world, man for man? No. They simply didn't have the experience to be that way.

Steve