Relativism and your Interface with the world...

[womble]

...of Normandy, Summer '44.

I've never been a fan of the 'relative' system in the interface. To be frank, I hated it and thought it was deeply misconceived from the start. The concept that 'similar commands are together' sounds good at first blush, but when you're setting up an order string for a unit, you don't just want to move it or fight it, you want to issue combat commands, special commands and administrative ones too, which involves a lot of paging around, which is bad interface design.

I like keyboard shortcuts. I tend to use them in every game I play, and in other applications too, but the relative system was a stumbling block that put me right off CM:SF. And then (to quote from the BN manual) "...we recommend that you decide which system you prefer and then assign the keys as you wish..." Yet the default UI has a confusing mix, with some functions available from direct keys, but others not (my biggest bugbear has to be 'I' for quIck vs 'T' for Target; so often you're using the Target line to find a hull-down place and the next thing you want to do is move there, quIckly. Oops, that's a Target Light order I have to cancel).

I would like to suggest that a hotkeys.txt for each approach be included in the final download, so that it's easy to expunge this confusion without having to edit files. I know it's too late to change the default; the manual (on which I'm basing my post) is being printed, after all, but if you're after improving the UI in subsequent releases, some work on the hotkeys (and how you assign them; TXT config files are a bit 90s, really, for a computer application) would be an excellent place to start, along with more informative tooltips.

Edited for clarity.

[Zatoichi]

I got used to the default commands in CMSF. They are by no means perfect, but they are now second nature to me (I play mostly WeGo).

One thing you don't mention is the return of the 'SPACEBAR orders' which arrived with one of the CMSF patches a few years ago - I don't use it especially, but it can be handy.

Obviously, just because I am used to the way it's currently done doesn't mean I don't want to see it improved over time, and Steve has stated that they are keen to update it eventually.

[bodkin]

......my interface with the world is neutral bordering on a dictatorship fetish....

I think I'm in the wrong self help forum.

[womble]

I got used to the default commands in CMSF. They are by no means perfect, but they are now second nature to me (I play mostly WeGo).

Sure, you can get used to them. You can get used to lots of things And, of course, it's editable, sort of (I'd still like to use Tab/Shift-Tab for next/prev unit, and that's not possible). But the point is that the awkwardness and confused nature of the design makes the game more difficult to get into than it should have been. I'd've probably bought the whole kaboodle of SF when I returned to CM last year, if the interface hadn't contributed to my 'not sure I like the setting' doubts.

One thing you don't mention is the return of the 'SPACEBAR orders' which arrived with one of the CMSF patches a few years ago - I don't use it especially, but it can be handy.

I don't imagine many people use it 'especially', which is one of the reasons I didn't mention it, another being it works (for what it is) as it should, largely. And my focus was on the relative/direct dichotomy in the interface.

[mjkerner]

+1

I agree, it's difficult to give orders quickly. So last week I bought a Belkin nte52 game pad thingy. I had an old Nostromo but lost the install hardware, and so I decided to techy-ed up. I had tried to change the default hotkeys in Notepad, but the commands under each command mode just have slashes in front of them, instead of the keyboard number/letter...long story short--I couldn't figure it out. So even though I still have to switch between command modes to give various orders, the * hotkey in CMSF (and CMBN, IIRC) cycles through command modes, so I mapped accordingly and have only one button to hit to go through the modes.

[Zatoichi]

Fair enough. I got used to the default commands because they worked for me. It wasn't 'especially' () hard for me to use them to control my troops and at no point did they turn me off the game.

I guess I'm just lucky in that respect. I'm not blind to the idea that they can (and should) be improved in future iterations though.

Heck, I'd be happy if in CMBN they put in a scroll bar on the scenario selection screen and gave players the option to delete saved games in the the interface. I don't imagine this is high up on BF's list of 'things to do' mind.

[Other Means]

Take a look at the CMSF forum and my hotkeys are stickied at the top. If you don’t use the keys for camera movement (like me and most CM1 players) they're a lot easier to learn.

Things like: (Q)uick, (T)arget, co(V)er arc (the V looks like an arc definer) etc.

[womble]

Take a look at the CMSF forum and my hotkeys are stickied at the top. If you don’t use the keys for camera movement (like me and most CM1 players) they're a lot easier to learn.

Things like: (Q)uick, (T)arget, co(V)er arc (the V looks like an arc definer) etc.

Seen 'em. I think I like having the keys available, but am playing with mousey camera.

But it still isn't my point. That such modifications are so necessary/widespread as to be stickied in the forums kinda reinforces my point. And since they're there already, why not include them as a 'hotkeys - direct - mouse camera.txt' in the final release of BN?

[ClarkWGriswold]

I've already complained about this issue twice. So, I'll hold my tongue this time and just say:

+1

[BigJ62]

I agree with OP and including scroll bars. Basic GUI design should not be overlooked.

Fair enough. I got used to the default commands because they worked for me. It wasn't 'especially' () hard for me to use them to control my troops and at no point did they turn me off the game.

I guess I'm just lucky in that respect. I'm not blind to the idea that they can (and should) be improved in future iterations though.

Heck, I'd be happy if in CMBN they put in a scroll bar on the scenario selection screen and gave players the option to delete saved games in the the interface. I don't imagine this is high up on BF's list of 'things to do' mind.

[LemoN]

I wouldn't mind the CM:SF system and the key-binds if some keys wouldn't be bound twice.

I can't say how often I got my tank crew to bail out instead of letting them "hunt". :mad:

[womble]

I wouldn't mind the CM:SF system and the key-binds if some keys wouldn't be bound twice.

I can't say how often I got my tank crew to bail out instead of letting them "hunt". :mad:

I don't think they're bound twice by default, and correcting that is just a matter of proofing your edits to the .txt file.

Except, I suppose, that all the keys are bound 'twice' (or 3 or 4 times), in a sense, in that "I", for example will get you Quick move, Target Light, Pause and Assault Team, depending on what order mode you're in. I choose 'I' as the example because it's actually a good (well it makes sense to me) replacement for "Q" which is reserved for camera rotation...

It's an inherent flaw in the whole default key layout.

[MikeyD]

CM's 'problem' is there are more order types than keyboard quick keys available. And people keep demanding more and more orders types! I imagine problems might arise having to reconcile PC with mac keyboard commands too. Other Means suggested above that if we were to abandon the default keypad movement commands in favor of the mouse control that frees up just about enough keys to cover all bases. Sounds like a good plan, but it'll take a decision on the player's part to abandon keyboard movement. I don't think BFC is willing to make that decision for you.

[Battlefront.com]

Yeah, it boils down to there being "too much" stuff in the game to work out well for the keyboard. The "Relative" method was designed, in part, to fix this problem. With something like 25 Commands + mouse movement + camera angles... well, there's only so many keys to go around. And the number of logical keys to use for that many functions is woefully short.

Nothing we can do about that with the existing UI, really, except what we tried to do. That clearly isn't working for quite a number of people so we're going to try something completely different for the next major CM release.

Steve

[LemoN]

It's an inherent flaw in the whole default key layout.

Hell, I'd UNBIND serveral keys from my keyboard in order to avoid this problem.... if it's possible.

IE, only keep the most used binds on the keyboard itself and change stuff like "dismount" or "bail out" to button press only.

For some strange reason I always get my tankers to bail out in the middle of a fight when I want them to "hunt".

[womble]

CM's 'problem' is there are more order types than keyboard quick keys available. And people keep demanding more and more orders types! I imagine problems might arise having to reconcile PC with mac keyboard commands too. Other Means suggested above that if we were to abandon the default keypad movement commands in favor of the mouse control that frees up just about enough keys to cover all bases. Sounds like a good plan, but it'll take a decision on the player's part to abandon keyboard movement. I don't think BFC is willing to make that decision for you.

Part of that problem, and in my eyes it's a real one, not something you can put in quotes and make go away, is that there aren't enough keys available for use as quick keys. A consequence of having a .txt file as the configuration method, and a config file with no syntax to allow non-alpha keys to be used.

Abandoning the relative model of hotkey mapping (or allowing it to be explicitly toggleable in the Options) would allow the numpad keys to be used for custom approaches to interface usage. As I understand it (potentially a faulty understanding, I freely admit) the numpad keys aren't remappable. I tried to use numbers for my camera movement keys, but only the alphanumeric keyboard numbers worked; the numpad did "odd things" that I have since concluded were the standard 'relative' mappings.

Many of the commands in the interface don't need hotkeys. Mark Mines, for example is probably rare enough that you can mouse to it when you need it (or use the spacebar menu). It's also arguable that some commands that you can't undo (like Split Squad in its various flavours) should only be mapped with caution, since having to wait for the game to correct your (or your cat's) error could waste an entire minute.

Still, there are 36 (9x4), maxiumum, hotkeys to be mapped and a dozen or so camera keys. Ought to be able to fit that on an alphanumeric keyboard...

However, that's not the point. That the default keymap disregards the game creators' sage advice to avoid mixing relative and direct keymapping methods, is. That this confusing approach makes the game more inaccessible than it needs to be, is. That addressing these problems to some extent, even at this late stage, is.

[womble]

Hell, I'd UNBIND serveral keys from my keyboard in order to avoid this problem.... if it's possible.

IE, only keep the most used binds on the keyboard itself and change stuff like "dismount" or "bail out" to button press only.

It's entirely possible. There's a section in the manual about 'customising hotkeys'. Page 21 of the CMSF base manual PDF.

For some strange reason I always get my tankers to bail out in the middle of a fight when I want them to "hunt".

That's because 'bail' is the middle-middle key on the 'special' menu, and 'hunt' is the middle-middle key on the 'movement' menu. In the default mapping, that means that both are activated by the 'k' key on the alpha keyboard, and by <NUMPAD 5>. Which you get is dependent on what mode you're in.

[LemoN]

Thanks!

I'll do this as soon as CM:BN is released!

[ClarkWGriswold]

Hell, I'd UNBIND serveral keys from my keyboard in order to avoid this problem.... if it's possible.

IE, only keep the most used binds on the keyboard itself and change stuff like "dismount" or "bail out" to button press only.

That's what I did for the CMSF demo. I remapped all of the move, target, etc. keys - the ones that are used constantly - to be more like CMx1. Then I just left commands to split squads, dismount, etc., unmapped.

This system work work quite well if the arrows could be better used for navigation and if I could move seldom used commands like "bail out" and "dismount" onto a single menu. That way I'd have keyboard and mouse control for movement, hotkeys for all of the commands I use most, and one clickable menu for everything else. It wouldn't be ideal, but it would be a big step up.

[womble]

Nothing we can do about that with the existing UI, really, except what we tried to do. That clearly isn't working for quite a number of people so we're going to try something completely different for the next major CM release.

Steve

It doesn't have to be completely different. IMO, some of the things it needs are:

* An easy way of flipping between the two paradigms of 'direct' and 'relative'. (This implies that the two are kept separate, as I believe is the intent)

* An easy way of remapping the keys to what you want them to be.

* A broader palette of available keys, including CTRL/ALT/SHIFT combos and the F-keys, the cursor keys, numpad and the Ins/Del 6.

* The option to turn off scrolling at the edge of the screen.

* The ability to rotate and move the camera at the same time.

At least some of these seem like they'd be relatively trivial changes to the Interface, since they're mostly new Options to choose and wouldn't affect the in-game graphics and information display any more than exiting and changing the hotkeys.txt file does.

Also, I've just been experimenting with the L/Rmouse-drag controls for move and rotate. Some observations:

* I can't rotate the camera while I'm moving it. Would be nice if both buttons together did that.

* Except when I don't want to. If I move my mouse in a curve, with the left button held, the view seems to "precess". If I draw circles, I can end up pointing in quite another direction to where I started. It's not enough to be useful, but is enough to not end up where you wanted to when you're translocating a long way.

* The manual says that rotation with the mouse "with the unit selected" (my emphasis) rotates around the unit. This is not true. It is only true if the view is locked to the unit using the Tab key.

I think a combination of the second 2 points caused me great frustration the first time I tried to get into SF (this last time, I didn't start off trying to use the mouse-drag commands). Perhaps it's because I'm using a Demo (the 1.20 one with Brits and Marines copyright 2009), and the second one could conceivably be a tech problem, I suppose. The last, though, is still what the manual for CMBN says; I hope it's been corrected so the game behaviour matches the manual.

[gunnersman]

Is it really that big of a problem for WeGo play?

[MikeyD]

makes the game more inaccessible than it needs to be

A lot of people simply hit the space bar and pick from the all-inclusive menu, for some its their preferred method of play. Three entirely different methods to access the orders is hardly 'inaccessible'.

[womble]

Is it really that big of a problem for WeGo play?

It (the interface) is enough of a problem for several old CMx1 hands to mention it as a serious contributory reason for not getting into CM:SF. It's a particularly serious problem if the game's behaviour still doesn't match that which is described in the manual (which may not be the case, as I say; the SF demo may be a special case). Some of the problem is self-inflicted and could have been resolved, trivially, for CMBN. It could still be mostly addressed before launch, for very little effort, none of which needs to involve precious coding resource or reprinting the manual.

[womble]

A lot of people simply hit the space bar and pick from the all-inclusive menu, for some its their preferred method of play. Three entirely different methods to access the orders is hardly 'inaccessible'.

It still remains 'more inaccessible than it needs to be'. The manual itself says "don't mix relative and direct" and yet the default layout makes a fine art of it. Different methods of using the interface are fine and dandy, but when one could be improved by trivial methods, that would be better, no?

[Ryujin]

I think it needs less reliance on keys, flight sim levels of button mapping are just not intuitive.

Perhaps a radial menu instead of the space bar list and more context sensitive commands.

i.e. holding down the mouse after clicking somewhere would give you a radial menu.

click and hold on ground and the radial menu has all the movement options.

click and hold on a enemy unit and it's target commands

click and hold on your selected unit (or when selecting it) and you get administrative/special.

If you hit T for target and click drag on the ground, it would give you a target arc.

Stuff like that could avoid having to memorize what every button on the keyboard does and instead just focus on the commands you need in that context.