Relativism and your Interface with the world...

[Battlefront.com]

I still don't get it I use the mouse exclusively and I am also playing in RT nearly always. I have never felt a need to move the camera and have pitch/rotation control at the same time. In fact, I rarely change pitch because the defaults assigned to the Camera hotkeys (1-9) do a really good job of that. I tend to use the screen edges for Rotate. But sometimes I do finetune using the right mouse button to freely rotate/pitch the camera.

The stuttering with the keyboard controls has been fixed recently. It will go fit into Shock Force.

Steve

[Other Means]

I think designing with RTS in mind is the way to go due to it's faster pace. Obviously, designing a WEGO keyboard layout for RTS doesn't seem to be comfortable for many. If you take a look at some of this TOW GUI I designed http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=93719 I see no reason that it could not be adapted to CM. The key to maximizing the amount of commands one can get out of available keys are the use of the Ctrl, ALt, keys and combo of. I learned this from Sudden Strike 2's interface. Sudden Strike had some of the best command and control still in comparison to other games that have come along. One key can offer up to 4 command variations with ease of learning use through muscle reptition, and key closness proximity.

Command Key

Ctrl +Key

Alt+ Key

Ctrl+Alt+Key

Here is sample of how Sudden Strike used more than one command per hotkey:

Command Key = Lay a landmine there

Ctrl + Command key= Lay mines in a lose pattern

Alt key + command key = Lay a mine at current location

Ctrl+Alt+Command key= Lay mines in a tight pattern

GUI button layout is the same as the keyboard to enforce muscle memory. 3 rows of 5, or 6 buttons each row

Using the design I have in that thread. The current Alt commands trees on/off ect.. would most logically be moved to the F1-F12 freeing the Alt key for better uses.

BF if you want someone with much RTS experience in command and control in things I know that work well in regard to this I can offer valuable input with this.

You're spot on about the transparency of UI being dependent on muscle memory and the grouping of similar commands with modifier keys being easier to grasp - however with CMBN there was a few issues: it's Mac and PC, hence no "cmd" key, plus things like the lack of Function keys for minimal kbds plus multi-language support.

It's a bit of a (M)inefield.

What BFC have done is bundle the keys I created as an alternative* - however these won't suit everyone, especially people who use the wasd keys for camera nav, whereas the default layout they supply will.

Give them a go when you've got the game and see how they suit you - dead easy to change if you don't like them.

*see the CMSF forum for what they're like.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I still don't get it

I don't get how you don't get it.

The current system might work well for you, but I find it incredibly frustrating. I just played the Shock Force demo again, trying to see if I could make it work. It's playable, but I constantly feel as though I'm fighting the controls, working against the UI instead of with it. It's really, really aggravating for me. CMx1 wasn't the best interface either, but I think CMSF is actually a step backwards. No offense intended.

I use the mouse exclusively and I am also playing in RT nearly always. I have never felt a need to move the camera and have pitch/rotation control at the same time.

To me, it's akin to walking around with a neck brace on, only able to look straight ahead and requiring you to stop and turn your whole body just to look to the side. Sure, it's still possible to function, but it's not natural or as easy as it should be.

In fact, I rarely change pitch because the defaults assigned to the Camera hotkeys (1-9) do a really good job of that. I tend to use the screen edges for Rotate. But sometimes I do finetune using the right mouse button to freely rotate/pitch the camera.

Pitch is the thing I'm least worried about. Like you, I use the number keys for height. But not being able to turn while moving feels completely unnatural.

The stuttering with the keyboard controls has been fixed recently. It will go fit into Shock Force.

Is it safe to assume that fix is already in CMBN? That wouldn't address all of my concerns, but it would surely help a lot.

[user38]

If flying around the battlefield with a mouse and keyboard is an issue maybe this is the solution to your problem:

[ClarkWGriswold]

I somehow doubt that would be an improvement.

[Vinnart]

You're spot on about the transparency of UI being dependent on muscle memory and the grouping of similar commands with modifier keys being easier to grasp - however with CMBN there was a few issues: it's Mac and PC, hence no "cmd" key, plus things like the lack of Function keys for minimal kbds plus multi-language support.

It's a bit of a (M)inefield.

What BFC have done is bundle the keys I created as an alternative* - however these won't suit everyone, especially people who use the wasd keys for camera nav, whereas the default layout they supply will.

Give them a go when you've got the game and see how they suit you - dead easy to change if you don't like them.

*see the CMSF forum for what they're like.

What I am referring to is not Cmx2 interface, which I have no problems with especially in WEGO from playing CMSF. For RTS it is not a problem for me because I use a multi button mouse, and a N52. I control this game VERY fast with these with complete ease. Using the keyboard however for RTS, is definitely not the best I have used. What I was referring to was the next build for CMx3 hotkey/camera control.

You are right I do not know much about mac/pc compatibility issues. I am not a programmer, but drawing from playing other games in the method I described above with the use of the Ctrl and Alt key I have come up with a keyboard design than is optimal for RTS play. With this method which was used by Sudden strike, and taking the concepts from TOW I can fit all the commands into 15 buttons using the keyboard grid Q to B. There are plenty of keys left over for Sound on off ect.. on the right side of keyboard.

IMO opinion the camera is the best I have used in any game as is now. The command and control are great. I would like to see improvements with aiding in situational awareness at a glance. The problem is the hotkey layout for RTS. The key is to not have all the commands grouped under 4 tabs, but rather to have groupings of orders per hotkey such as TOW approach with sub tabs under primary order.

This layout is designed for what I feel is the most popular way of controlling which is navigation with mouse; right hand, and hotkeys orders for left hand. The option to set up single key per command should also be available to please all. #Pad and arrows can be for keyboard camera navigation option. Why anyone would play like that though is beyond me.

Here is layout that groups orders logically, and by most common used.

First row: MOVE orders.

Q key=QUICK, Q+Ctrl=FAST,

W key=MOVE, W+Ctrl=REVERSE

E key= ASSAULT, E+Ctrl= BLAST

R key=HUNT, R+Ctrl=SLOW

T key=POP SMOKE, R+CTRL= TARGET SMOKE

2nd row: COMBAT/SPECIALS:

A key= TARGET, A+Ctrl=TARGET LIGHT, A+Alt=CLEAR TARGET

S key= TARGET ARC

D key= FACE

F key = HIDE

G key=OPEN UP

3rd ROW: SPECIAL/ADMIN

Z key=PAUSE, Z+Ctrl= STOP, Z+Alt=CANCEL LAST WAYPOINT

X key= AQUIRE

C key= DISMOUNT, C+ Ctrl = BAIL OUT

V key = SPLIT, V+Ctrl= TRANSFER (really would like to see this added)

B key = AT TEAM , B+Ctrl=ASSAULT TEAM, B+ALT=SCOUT TEAM

CAMERA

Space bar= POP UP ORDERS as is now, but color coded text to mach buttons and lines

Tab= LOCK CAMERA TO UNIT

` key= RESELECT PREVIOUS UNIT

1-9= PRESET CAMERA VIEWS

F1= ZOOM OUT

F2=ZOOM IN

F3= TOGGLE ZOOM

F4= 180 turn

+ and - = CYCLE THROUGH UNITS (option to bind to forward/back side mouse buttons)

[Battlefront.com]

I don't get how you don't get it.

Obviously because whatever problem you're having I'm not having This is the #1 problem with UI... there's no one right way to do it. There's not even two right ways to do it. And the more complex the UI, the more ways there are to not do it right.

The current system might work well for you, but I find it incredibly frustrating.

At some point players have to stop fighting a UI and just play. Remember, the game isn't fighting you, you're fighting the game. Since the game can't dynamically assess what you want and adapt to it, this means you have to adapt to it. Obviously with some games this is easier to do than others, so I'm not saying it's always possible to do.

From a developer standpoint we try very, very hard to have there be as many ways to play the game as possible since we don't want people to fight the game's UI. But with so many possible ways people want the game to work, at some point a developer draw a line and move onto something else.

Again, this isn't to say that you're wrong and we're right. It's about the impossibility of pleasing everybody equally well all the time, every time. This isn't just about UI, but about anything in the game engine, it's documentation, the scenarios that ship with it, etc. There's only so much we can do.

Fortunately, we do know we can do more and that's our plan.

To me, it's akin to walking around with a neck brace on, only able to look straight ahead and requiring you to stop and turn your whole body just to look to the side. Sure, it's still possible to function, but it's not natural or as easy as it should be.

You forgot to say "in my humble opinion" It feels perfectly natural and easy to use from my perspective. I don't think I've ever played a 3rd person type game with "fly around with my mouse" camera behavior like you're looking for. 1st person games? Sure, but that's an entirely different type of game with entirely different types of UI.

Is it safe to assume that fix is already in CMBN? That wouldn't address all of my concerns, but it would surely help a lot.

Yup and yup!

Steve

[Morjit]

I think that what ClarkWGriswold might be looking for is a Total War style camera control. Using the mouse the turning of the camera as you move it forward feels pretty smooth. Very similar to Combat Mission but easier to point where you want it in some situations.

[stikkypixie]

I think that what ClarkWGriswold might be looking for is a Total War style camera control. Using the mouse the turning of the camera as you move it forward feels pretty smooth. Very similar to Combat Mission but easier to point where you want it in some situations.

The funny thing is, having played too much CM I can't get into the Total War camera scheme .

[hoolaman]

You can move obliquely with A/D and W/S, but as soon as you hit Q or E your movement ceases and you begin rotating. And if you're rotating, and press 'move', the rotation stops and you move.

True, I've put this in as a bug.

Aha! Some further experimentation demonstrates that you can combine mouse and keyboard camera movement. While left-mouse translocating you can use the rotation keys to turn left and right.

The keyboard/mouse combo I use is the reverse: keyboard panning (translocating?) for forward back and sliding, and screen edge mouse "steering" (rotating) but its the same concept.

Glad you found this combo, hopefully others will too, it's the only way to "fly".