Relativism and your Interface with the world...

[hoolaman]

I only use the default direct hotkeys, so I have never bailed when I wanted to hunt.

But I only use a handful of hotkeys for frequent commands, the rest I use the mouse and click the buttons which I don't find too onerous. The only keys I use are N - Move, G - Rotate, H - Hide, P - Pause

Also, I've just been experimenting with the L/Rmouse-drag controls for move and rotate. Some observations:

* I can't rotate the camera while I'm moving it. Would be nice if both buttons together did that.

Yes that's true with the mouse, but you can do this if you use the keyboard panning (WASD). I don't know how you could do that with the mouse anyway, moving the mouse could control one or the other on each axis, not both at the same time. I use a combination of screen-edge scrolling and panning keys and can very quickly fly over the map.

[Vinnart]

If you want speed and efficiency with this, or any other game, get two things: A mouse with as many programmable buttons, and a NostramoN52. With any game it takes a bit of trial and error to get your hotkeys laid out comfortably on them, but once you do you will control with SPEED, comfort, and efficiency! If you do not take this advice, and RTS HvH against one who is using what I recommend you will LOSE on the draw EVERYTIME in speed of issuing commands to your units. I control this game VERY fast. I have all the most commands/camera tied to the two devices. All others I acces via the space bar.

[Battlefront.com]

It (the interface) is enough of a problem for several old CMx1 hands to mention it as a serious contributory reason for not getting into CM:SF.

What I find amusing is I bet some of those people complained like Hell about the CMx1 interface when they first experienced it

It's a particularly serious problem if the game's behaviour still doesn't match that which is described in the manual (which may not be the case, as I say; the SF demo may be a special case).

It's really hard to write a manual and a game concurrently. We were making changes to the game all the way up until we shipped. We then made MAJOR changes to the game after release. This caused the game and the manual to get out of synch. We largely had it tightened up for the last couple of manual revisions, but of course that doesn't help if you have a printed manual.

With CM:BN we're still making changes to the game right now. Some of which will probably contradict the manual in places. There are also some places in the manual that reflect older code and we just didn't catch them during one of the many revisions of the draft. Unfortunately, that's an outcome of a vastly deep game with guys making it that never want to call it "good enough".

The difference with CM:BN is it was built on a mature engine AND a mature manual. So the two should be far closer together than CM:SF and it's first manual were.

I think it needs less reliance on keys, flight sim levels of button mapping are just not intuitive.

This is the heart of the keyboard shortcut problem. Like a flight sim, there's a ton of functions to give the player access to. A FPS game, for example, has probably 15 or so major "Commands", including 6 for moving the camera. There's just no way CM could ever be that simplified.

We are planning a better design for interacting with the Commands. But that's a major overhaul which we had no time to do for CM:BN.

Steve

[sburke]

With CM:BN we're still making changes to the game right now. Some of which will probably contradict the manual in places. There are also some places in the manual that reflect older code and we just didn't catch them during one of the many revisions of the draft. Unfortunately, that's an outcome of a vastly deep game with guys making it that never want to call it "good enough".

Steve

oohhhh so that probably means no demo tomorrow?

[LJFHutch]

I used to hate the interface when I first used it, now it's hard to play any other RTS or even consider a different interface than SF.

It'd be nice for us with larger screens (24" here) if we could have the order sections expanded and spread across the (very large) screen real-estate.

Or on the sides so that we can see a bit better:

[womble]

What I find amusing is I bet some of those people complained like Hell about the CMx1 interface when they first experienced it

Maybe they did, but were so blown away by the novelty of a 3D tank game that they could be bothered to find a way through the morass of confusing controls. I don't remember being particularly flummoxed by CMx1, though having spun up AK for the first time in a while last night, that might've been because interface expectations weren't as developed back then, too.

You don't have the novelty to drag people over the hump this time. Sure, the "hooray, back to WW2" joy will help some develop their own way of playing the game. Others who failed at SF in the past will see the same I/F and silently fade away.

It's really hard to write a manual and a game concurrently. We were making changes to the game all the way up until we shipped. We then made MAJOR changes to the game after release. This caused the game and the manual to get out of synch. We largely had it tightened up for the last couple of manual revisions, but of course that doesn't help if you have a printed manual.

I understand the problems of documentation. I understand that sometimes things get missed. Can anyone address the specific issue of camera rotation using the mouse with a unit selected (not unit-locked)? Does the view rotate around the unit, or the point on the floor under your viewpoint? I have a PDF manual from 2009 that effectively says selecting a unit is the same as locking it. Just like the BN manual does. Does the current release of SF do that? BN?

This is the heart of the keyboard shortcut problem. Like a flight sim, there's a ton of functions to give the player access to. A FPS game, for example, has probably 15 or so major "Commands", including 6 for moving the camera. There's just no way CM could ever be that simplified.

No one ever said it should be. There are lots of complicated games out there that have the capacity to map many, many keys. Look at RTSs and MMOs rather than FPSs for examples. They at least use all the F-keys.

Excluding the editor shortcuts and the 18 keys used to give commands in the relative mode, there are 57 keys mapped in the manual. My most-played-with at the moment WoW character maps something in the order of 90 keybinds Edit: not counting the alternate actions that pop up when I change mode, most of which I use almost every time I wake the toon up.

We are planning a better design for interacting with the Commands. But that's a major overhaul which we had no time to do for CM:BN.

Steve

I am in no wise demanding that this capability be brought into BN. I recognise that it's far too late for that much work.

Is it too late to push 2 additional hotkey files and a readme.txt into the release ..\Data folder, one with the relative keys disabled and the other with the direct ones chopped?

[womble]

I only use the default direct hotkeys, so I have never bailed when I wanted to hunt.

The only way, as I understand it, to do that is to have edited out the relative keys from your hotkeys.txt

But I only use a handful of hotkeys for frequent commands, the rest I use the mouse and click the buttons which I don't find too onerous. The only keys I use are N - Move, G - Rotate, H - Hide, P - Pause

Or if you strictly self-limit. Note also that I'm not saying that mousing for the commands is 'onerous'.

Yes that's true with the mouse, but you can do this if you use the keyboard panning (WASD).

You can move obliquely with A/D and W/S, but as soon as you hit Q or E your movement ceases and you begin rotating. And if you're rotating, and press 'move', the rotation stops and you move.

Aha! Some further experimentation demonstrates that you can combine mouse and keyboard camera movement. While left-mouse translocating you can use the rotation keys to turn left and right. It even gets stuck on sometimes if you've been zooming around a lot... Thanks for prompting further experimentation. It's kinda arsey-versy compared to 'game standards' in my world where you keymap the side-to-side and use the mouse to rotate. I tried that too, and it works to a point, but the rotation seems to stick on more quickly, and that's irritating.

I don't know how you could do that with the mouse anyway, moving the mouse could control one or the other on each axis, not both at the same time.

It's entirely possible in lots of games. Some call it 'free flying camera', I think. The way you do it is to have that mode (however it is engaged) have rotation be activated by sideways movement, and forward motion triggered by just having the buttons pushed.

[scottie]

Yeah, it boils down to there being "too much" stuff in the game to work out well for the keyboard. The "Relative" method was designed, in part, to fix this problem. With something like 25 Commands + mouse movement + camera angles... well, there's only so many keys to go around. And the number of logical keys to use for that many functions is woefully short.

Nothing we can do about that with the existing UI, really, except what we tried to do. That clearly isn't working for quite a number of people so we're going to try something completely different for the next major CM release.

Steve

Can add me to this list, i use a mouse and the camera movement keys and thats it. Just never really got comfortable with the CMSF layout. Mouse is good enough though.

[Battlefront.com]

You don't have the novelty to drag people over the hump this time. Sure, the "hooray, back to WW2" joy will help some develop their own way of playing the game. Others who failed at SF in the past will see the same I/F and silently fade away.

I don't see any evidence for that. In fact, with nearly 20 years of time under my belt on the development side of things I'd say that is the exact opposite conclusion I get from looking at the history of computer wargaming. People are willing to put up with far worse UI than CM ever had if the content is interesting enough.

Granted, better UI helps with those sitting on the fence, and it's why we are going for a big UI overhaul next round, but I don't think the UI overhaul will improve sales much. It will make the existing customers happier with the game system, and that's a worthy goal all on its own.

I understand the problems of documentation. I understand that sometimes things get missed. Can anyone address the specific issue of camera rotation using the mouse with a unit selected (not unit-locked)? Does the view rotate around the unit, or the point on the floor under your viewpoint? I have a PDF manual from 2009 that effectively says selecting a unit is the same as locking it. Just like the BN manual does. Does the current release of SF do that? BN?

Looks like we have to tweak that. The camera only rotates around a unit when Locked. That's the whole point of Locking

No one ever said it should be. There are lots of complicated games out there that have the capacity to map many, many keys. Look at RTSs and MMOs rather than FPSs for examples. They at least use all the F-keys.

We use the F-Keys in the Editor. It complicates mapping to have them also available for custom binding. Not saying we can't come up with a better way of binding keys, I'm just stating why it is the way it is now.

Excluding the editor shortcuts and the 18 keys used to give commands in the relative mode, there are 57 keys mapped in the manual. My most-played-with at the moment WoW character maps something in the order of 90 keybinds Edit: not counting the alternate actions that pop up when I change mode, most of which I use almost every time I wake the toon up.

90 keybinds? Ugh!

Is it too late to push 2 additional hotkey files and a readme.txt into the release ..\Data folder, one with the relative keys disabled and the other with the direct ones chopped?

We've already done that, so the answer is "yes" The Alternative Hotkeys is from OtherMeans' well tried and tested set.

Steve

[Zatoichi]

That's great info Steve - thanks for giving us yet another insight into your approach to this.

Now, about those scroll bars in the pre-game UI...

[womble]

Looks like we have to tweak that. The camera only rotates around a unit when Locked. That's the whole point of Locking

Aha. Good. I thought it was probably manualry at fault. Glad to have flagged up the issue.

We've already done that, so the answer is "yes" The Alternative Hotkeys is from OtherMeans' well tried and tested set.

Steve

Excellent. All that can be expected for now, naturally. I look forward to the new interface whichever decade it makes it out for.

[BigJ62]

With sorting.

That's great info Steve - thanks for giving us yet another insight into your approach to this.

Now, about those scroll bars in the pre-game UI...

[Vinnart]

I think designing with RTS in mind is the way to go due to it's faster pace. Obviously, designing a WEGO keyboard layout for RTS doesn't seem to be comfortable for many. If you take a look at some of this TOW GUI I designed http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=93719 I see no reason that it could not be adapted to CM. The key to maximizing the amount of commands one can get out of available keys are the use of the Ctrl, ALt, keys and combo of. I learned this from Sudden Strike 2's interface. Sudden Strike had some of the best command and control still in comparison to other games that have come along. One key can offer up to 4 command variations with ease of learning use through muscle reptition, and key closness proximity.

Command Key

Ctrl +Key

Alt+ Key

Ctrl+Alt+Key

Here is sample of how Sudden Strike used more than one command per hotkey:

Command Key = Lay a landmine there

Ctrl + Command key= Lay mines in a lose pattern

Alt key + command key = Lay a mine at current location

Ctrl+Alt+Command key= Lay mines in a tight pattern

GUI button layout is the same as the keyboard to enforce muscle memory. 3 rows of 5, or 6 buttons each row

Using the design I have in that thread. The current Alt commands trees on/off ect.. would most logically be moved to the F1-F12 freeing the Alt key for better uses.

BF if you want someone with much RTS experience in command and control in things I know that work well in regard to this I can offer valuable input with this.

[ClarkWGriswold]

If I may offer a suggestion for CMx3: Don't rely on mouse buttons to determine the behavior of the camera.

In pretty much every RTS or 3D strategy game I've ever played, and also in most sims that have an external camera, the mouse controls the pitch and yaw of the camera while four keys control forward, backward, and strafing left/right. This allows you to fly along, turning this way and that to see what you need to see. It's easy to strafe back and forth across the battlefield and you can change how much you're looking up/down just by moving the mouse while you strafe. This kind of control is fairly standard in a lot of games, and it's very easy and intuitive to control. But beyond being easier to control, it offers a big, big advantage over the current system: The mouse buttons aren't always in use!

The current control system requires you to press the mouse buttons in order to orient the camera. Which means you can't use it for issuing orders. You have to move the camera to where you want, stop, then issue the order. You can't pre-select an order, then fly across the map and click it where you want, because as soon as you click a mouse button to orient the camera you've either de-selected the order you were going to give or you've given the order where you didn't mean to.

Taking the mouse buttons out of the equation frees up the user to get more things done with less effort. Also, if you make the default behavior of the mouse to change the pitch/yaw, you no longer need two sets of mouse controls (move and "look"). You can easily move either using the screen edges or four keys. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy. It would probably be fairly trivial to implement something like this before moving on from the CMx2 engine, I'd imagine. Just make the default behavior of the mouse act like the right button is pressed and allow the arrow keys to move forward/back and strafe left/right. If you can implement this and make the controls even reasonably smooth, I think it would be a huge, huge improvement to the control scheme (and would free up at least two keys *and* both mouse buttons).

[Battlefront.com]

Er... that's why we have camera controls binded to the keyboard Personally I find it much quicker to use the mouse to navigate and the other hand to hit Hotkeys. But that's just personal taste.

Steve

[ClarkWGriswold]

Is there any way to un-bind the mouse buttons? Or to change the default behavior of the mouse to behave more as I describe above? I'd like to try out "moving" the camera with the keys and "looking" the camera with the mouse (no buttons pressed).

edit: It would also be awesome if I could bind the spacebar's behavior to the right mouse button.

[Vinnart]

Personally I find it much quicker to use the mouse to navigate and the other hand to hit Hotkeys. But that's just personal taste.

Steve

I absolutly agree. That IS the quickest way. Right hand mouse and camera/cursor control. Left hand hotkeys. I think the mouse configure Clark is describing works best in FPS games, not RTS. The reason is that it ties up BOTH hands controlling the camera.

I have to admit the way the game controls was awkward at first, and took a bit getting used to. Now that I am I don't have much problem controling the game camera and hotkeys with it's current set up at all with speed via N52 an MXmouse. It really has become second nature, but it can be a bit awkward since it so different than other games switching back and forth from TOW. Having the two games control similarly would have benifits. TOW would be a good base to design around I think as it controls in a way many are used to for RTS play.

Whatever you do, please keep the spacebar commands. Always a quicky to fallback on for commands. I kind of think of it as a unique CM tradition. Glad it is back!

[Dadekster88]

I've just learned to adapt. I play a wide variety of games which means a lot of different control styles. If I like a game enough I learn how to use the interface just through sheer use. I'm to lazy to think up possibilities of maybe there being easier ways to do said chores I mean I honestly do live by the work smarter not harder approach but I don't kid myself when I am sitting at the PC, drink in hand and debating the best way to send more poor virtual troops to their death under the illusion that I had something figured out. I don't exactly call playing a game hard work But to each their own.

[womble]

Is there any way to un-bind the mouse buttons? Or to change the default behavior of the mouse to behave more as I describe above? I'd like to try out "moving" the camera with the keys and "looking" the camera with the mouse (no buttons pressed).

I'm confused. If with 'no buttons pressed', your mouse is controlling the camera behaviour, how do you ever click on anything to select it?

edit: It would also be awesome if I could bind the spacebar's behavior to the right mouse button.

I think the Second-quickest and easiest way of improving the interface would be to add a 'hotkey customisation' interface that gives you a point-and-click way of setting your own hotkey for every available function. That way, things like special keys, Tab, Enter, Backspace and the spacebar can be bound to different functions, as well as allowing ctrl- alt- and shift- combos. The interface could check for duplicates and that 'mandatory' features are bound. Doesn't require any tinkering with what's on-screen while we play.

The quickest way would be to add a 'load hotkeys' function, perhaps with a three-radiobutton option for Relative/direct/mixed that will ignore the relevant sections of the currently-loaded hotkeys.txt

[user38]

I have a different theory on this (that is, neither relative or absolute).

I am, essentially, a lazy and self indulgent person. I have the great good fortune to live alone and so my PC is in my living room connected to my 52 inch LCD TV and I use it while sitting in an arm chair. Given this set up I like to play games either with a joy pad or with a mouse only.

I recently purchsed a 13 button logitech G700 mouse.

I have been experimenting with the CMSF interface and (using the space bar method of inputting commands) I have stumbled upon the following settings.

Its not perfect, but if you like to use your computer one handed (as I do) then I think you will find this method adequate.

[ClarkWGriswold]

I'm confused. If with 'no buttons pressed', your mouse is controlling the camera behaviour, how do you ever click on anything to select it?

It's difficult to explain, and I'm probably not getting this across very well. It seems that using the left mouse button and moving the mouse is the way that pretty much everyone pans across the battlefield. The problem is that the left mouse button also is used for selecting units and it's also used for issuing orders. It's doing three different jobs, but can only do one at a time.

If we take the left mouse button out of the equation and allow the player to move the camera directionally using some other method, then it frees up the left mouse button for purely selecting units and issuing orders.

The right mouse button is in a similar jam. It's used for controlling the camera, finishing orders, and selecting "no units". In CMBB I rarely found myself changing the pitch of the camera. In general, the number key views were just about right. The higher the camera is, the more you look down at the battlefield, and the lower it is the more you look across the battlefield, into the distance. In CMSF when you use the scroll wheel to raise/lower your view, the camera simply moves up and down. It doesn't change its pitch, so you constantly have to move around to make sure that whatever is in your field of view stays there. If this behavior was changed the camera would be useful enough by default that the right mouse button wouldn't be needed (or certainly wouldn't be needed as much), freeing it up for other, more useful functions.

So, not only are both mouse buttons overused (or used for the wrong thing, depending on how you want to look at it), but it also precludes you from moving and turning at a time. You can move forward, then rotate your view to the right, but you can't make a smooth sweep forward and right. Well, you can, but it doesn't work very well (using W to move forward while holding the RMB down to "steer").

I think the Second-quickest and easiest way of improving the interface would be to add a 'hotkey customisation' interface that gives you a point-and-click way of setting your own hotkey for every available function. That way, things like special keys, Tab, Enter, Backspace and the spacebar can be bound to different functions, as well as allowing ctrl- alt- and shift- combos. The interface could check for duplicates and that 'mandatory' features are bound. Doesn't require any tinkering with what's on-screen while we play.

I would love to see a quick and easy hotkey assignment option, but my real beef is not so much with the hotkeys as the mouse/camera behavior. I've been able to create a hotkey layout that more or less works for me. But as long as I'm stuck using both mouse buttons to control the camera, it's not going to be a smooth or efficient control method. You can work around it, and you can get better at it, but it's fundamentally flawed, IMO. Both of the guys I play CMBB with have come to the exact same conclusions about the CMSF demo: The controls make things much more difficult than they should be.

[stikkypixie]

It's difficult to explain, and I'm probably not getting this across very well. It seems that using the left mouse button and moving the mouse is the way that pretty much everyone pans across the battlefield. The problem is that the left mouse button also is used for selecting units and it's also used for issuing orders. It's doing three different jobs, but can only do one at a time.

If we take the left mouse button out of the equation and allow the player to move the camera directionally using some other method, then it frees up the left mouse button for purely selecting units and issuing orders.

The right mouse button is in a similar jam. It's used for controlling the camera, finishing orders, and selecting "no units". In CMBB I rarely found myself changing the pitch of the camera. In general, the number key views were just about right. The higher the camera is, the more you look down at the battlefield, and the lower it is the more you look across the battlefield, into the distance. In CMSF when you use the scroll wheel to raise/lower your view, the camera simply moves up and down. It doesn't change its pitch, so you constantly have to move around to make sure that whatever is in your field of view stays there. If this behavior was changed the camera would be useful enough by default that the right mouse button wouldn't be needed (or certainly wouldn't be needed as much), freeing it up for other, more useful functions.

So, not only are both mouse buttons overused (or used for the wrong thing, depending on how you want to look at it), but it also precludes you from moving and turning at a time. You can move forward, then rotate your view to the right, but you can't make a smooth sweep forward and right. Well, you can, but it doesn't work very well (using W to move forward while holding the RMB down to "steer").

I would love to see a quick and easy hotkey assignment option, but my real beef is not so much with the hotkeys as the mouse/camera behavior. I've been able to create a hotkey layout that more or less works for me. But as long as I'm stuck using both mouse buttons to control the camera, it's not going to be a smooth or efficient control method. You can work around it, and you can get better at it, but it's fundamentally flawed, IMO. Both of the guys I play CMBB with have come to the exact same conclusions about the CMSF demo: The controls make things much more difficult than they should be.

I just push the mouse to the edge of the screen to pan around. Always seemed more intuitive to me.

[Erik Springelkamp]

I just push the mouse to the edge of the screen to pan around. Always seemed more intuitive to me.

I use that for broad moves, but for finer control I use left-click-drag.

I don't see a big problem with using the left mouse button for both camera-control and unit selection, but it can be awkward when you need fine control of the camera-position while plotting a move, like when moving around in large building-complexes.

[womble]

It's difficult to explain, and I'm probably not getting this across very well. It seems that using the left mouse button and moving the mouse is the way that pretty much everyone pans across the battlefield. The problem is that the left mouse button also is used for selecting units and it's also used for issuing orders. It's doing three different jobs, but can only do one at a time.

If we take the left mouse button out of the equation and allow the player to move the camera directionally using some other method, then it frees up the left mouse button for purely selecting units and issuing orders.

I get that bit. What I don't get is how, if the camera moves when you move the mouse with no buttons pressed, you get a cursor to hit the thing you actually want to click on to select...

[ClarkWGriswold]

I get that bit. What I don't get is how, if the camera moves when you move the mouse with no buttons pressed, you get a cursor to hit the thing you actually want to click on to select...

I'm not suggesting that the camera always move with no mouse button selected (that might actually work, but would probably be disorienting). What I'm suggesting is that you don't require both mouse buttons to perform basic camera control. The thing to take away from my suggestion is that it's going to be difficult or impossible to get smooth, intuitive camera control using the mouse for both fore/aft;left/right and pitch/rotation. That's four axis of control that's needed, but the mouse can only do two at any given time.

Other complex RTS games seem to have solved this issue. If you look at youtube videos for Elements of War or World in Conflict you can see very smooth, precise camera control in those games. I've been unable to replicate anything even close to that level of control in the CMSF demo, and haven't seen anything similar in any of the CMSF gameplay videos I've seen. Frankly, I don't even know how people can play CMSF in realtime. I have a hard enough time doing what I want even in WeGo.

The current system might be more workable if the mouse and keyboard controls would work smoothly together. Nobody that I personally know has been able to achieve this. You wind up with strange stuttering and the mouse and keys seem to be fighting each other (this is based on the CMSF 1.30 demo). Judging by some of the comments on the forum, I'm not alone in experiencing control issues. I'm going to continue experimenting to see if I can find a better solution to meet my own needs, but I think the underlying control scheme could use some improvement. I'm really hoping that I won't have to wait 5 years for CMx3 to see it.