Preview or how to kill 17 Shermans with one Panther

[Noba]

You need to work on your sarcasm, bro.

And your hissy fits.

Other than that you're doing great.

He forgot to put [POUT] at the beginning and [/POUT] at the end....

Noba.

[Magpie_Oz]

I am serious, in fact we can find even more convenient short hand, like for example we should just say Australia and take that to include NZ, PNG, and Fiji as we all use the same stuff.

and Pout is a great additive we can put that right up there along, "everyone knows that....." and 60 years of usage" and "it is because I say it is" and other such persuasive arguments as to how the Commonwealth is structured.

[Fetchez la Vache]

You have perfectly reasonable point. "Commonwealth" is a lazy and poor choice of word used to crudely compartmentalize the Allies.

[Glukx Ouglouk]

Well of course you are all right. I don't know what came over me.

Of course the Polish. Belgians, Luxembourgers, Czech et al should all be referred to as "Commonwealth" and why not? The might sound a bit funny, but they all look the same and have the same stuff so why bother differentiating them?

I agree the French should not be distinguished from the Americans, they have a close affinity and share the same gear too.

In fact given that the Americans themselves are actually a Dominion, if we overlook that little hissy fit they had in the 1770's, so really they are part of the Commonwealth. Ergo the French are Commonwealth too, so come on in!

That will make the American Commonwealth's first battle in North Africa a bit confusing as they will be fighting against the Commonwealth Vichy French in North Africa and trying to meet up with the Commonwealth 8th Army forces coming in from the East but I am sure they will work it out.

IN FACT given that there were a substantial number of GERMANS, about 10000, who served in the British army it leads us to see that Germany is really part of the Commonwealth as well so the module with the SS in it is quite justified as being termed "The Commonwealth".

Then too there were considerable numbers of Soviets who served with the German Army so I guess the USSR is part of the Commonwealth as well !

The Italians are of course considered Commonwealth, being as they were fighting along side their Commonwealth German Allies.

Finally and of course quite obviously there were numerous ethnic Japanese who fought with the US Commonwealth forces so they get a guernsey as well.

So really when it comes down to it what we call "World War 2" should really be the "Commonwealth Civil War" and in fact CM should not stand for "Combat Mission" but "Commonwealth Module"

I... honestly don't know what to say. Let me try and make something clear: when someone says "A's forces fought as part of B's forces, under B's command" it DOES NOT mean the same as "A was part of B". There are such things as nuances in language.

Saying "the Polish forces in Normandy fought as part of the Commonwealth's forces" DOES NOT mean "Poland was part of the Commonwealth" (hint: they had a government in exile, which had their say in what was done with their forces), nor does it mean "Polish forces were indistinguishable from Commonwealth forces" (hint: they were Polish, spoke Polish, used Polish ranks, had Polish markings on their vehicles, and so on).

[MCB]

But what about the sausages dear boy, the sausages?!!!

[JonS]

I am serious, in fact we can find even more convenient short hand, like for example we should just say Australia and take that to include NZ, PNG, and Fiji as we all use the same stuff.

That would be 'Australasia'

You're floundering now, which is a shame since you were doing so well.

[GhostRider3/3]

Geesh! wow what a subject. I just want to say as a German-American that the Poles and many other "inter-national" forces fought bravely.. some were harshly treated by the british and Soviet Union.

The Poles really did have a huge impact on the Allies in the number of troops it brought to the table after the fall of France... which was a good thing. They also had 4 Squadrons worth of Aircraft. They took Monte Cassino in Italy only probably because the British Command did not want to see his troops chewed up any more then they already got... so the Polish with everything to prove, took it and raised the Polish Flag. They were also brutaly spent by the Soviet Union who let the the German Forces anhilate them almost before the Soviet Union came in to mop up what was left. Although it is FACT that they fought UNDER UK COMMAND, it is without a doubt that they fought not for the British, but for their Homland and their brothers and sisters... it was a shame that the Allies did not respond sooner in 1939 and come to their aid when they needed it most.

[Sgt Joch]

You have perfectly reasonable point. "Commonwealth" is a lazy and poor choice of word used to crudely compartmentalize the Allies.

I would just say "Canadian Army and friends" since the Canadians did all the real fighting against the SS anyway.

[GhostRider3/3]

Say anyone remeber this game... Panzer Blitz... just saw it at a second hand store for 23.00. I may get it just for sentimental factors. LOL Oh yeah.. anyone know how to upload pictures so they are not thumbnails..

[Barkhorn1x]

Say anyone remeber this game... Panzer Blitz... just saw it at a second hand store for 23.00. I may get it just for sentimental factors. LOL Oh yeah.. anyone know how to upload pictures so they are not thumbnails..

Ha..Panzer Blitz. I still own Panzer Leader, stained scenario cards and all but I don't know what happened to my copy of PB.

[Fetchez la Vache]

I would just say "Canadian Army and friends" since the Canadians did all the real fighting against the SS anyway.

I think you'd be perfectly right say so! Although I'd like to think the Brits were there for you too when you needed them...

I'd only place Canadians second to the NZ'ers in my own personal grossly-generalized-scale-of-Allied-fighting-prowess-and-daring-do. ;-)

[Blackcat]

I think you'd be perfectly right say so!

I'd only place Canadians second to the NZ'ers in my own personal grossly-generalized-scale-of-Allied-fighting-prowess-and-daring-do. ;-)

What about the Aussies then?

Just out of interest where in Oman are you? I spent some time out there based in Mina Sultan Qaboos. I loved the country and loved the people and wouldn't have come back but for Herself not being able to cope with the heat.

[dan/california]

Geesh! wow what a subject. I just want to say as a German-American that the Poles and many other "inter-national" forces fought bravely.. some were harshly treated by the british and Soviet Union.

The Poles really did have a huge impact on the Allies in the number of troops it brought to the table after the fall of France... which was a good thing. They also had 4 Squadrons worth of Aircraft. They took Monte Cassino in Italy only probably because the British Command did not want to see his troops chewed up any more then they already got... so the Polish with everything to prove, took it and raised the Polish Flag. They were also brutaly spent by the Soviet Union who let the the German Forces anhilate them almost before the Soviet Union came in to mop up what was left. Although it is FACT that they fought UNDER UK COMMAND, it is without a doubt that they fought not for the British, but for their Homland and their brothers and sisters... it was a shame that the Allies did not respond sooner in 1939 and come to their aid when they needed it most.

I think 99% of the people on this board will concede that A) Poland got one of the 2 or three rawest deals in the 20th century and That they displayed incredible bravery in battle after battle, often against hopeless odds. Poland's emergence from all of that as a functioning, civilized, and quite nice country is amazing.

The immediate issue at hand however is simulating Polish forces in Western Europe in 1944 and 45. Given that the TO&E is identical to similar British formations, pretty much all that is required is voice files and a few graphics. The excellent qualities as soldiers can be dealt with by the existing experience, morale, and fitness settings.

[Barkhorn1x]

The excellent qualities as soldiers can be dealt with by the existing experience, morale, and fitness settings.

I do hope the Poles are included as an homage to their fighting abilities.

[Magpie_Oz]

You're floundering now, which is a shame since you were doing so well.

Always found that once a thread turns personal the opportunity for informed debate has passed so that's it for me on this one.

[Fetchez la Vache]

What about the Aussies then?

Just out of interest where in Oman are you? I spent some time out there based in Mina Sultan Qaboos. I loved the country and loved the people and wouldn't have come back but for Herself not being able to cope with the heat.

Aussies? Equal third with the Poles and Scots. Too close to call. :-)

Muscat - we're living in Medinat Al Ilam, so just down Alan Shearer Street from MSQ. Great place and people, as you say. Both of us working so only the kids to go mad over the summer. Sorry, go more mad over the summer. ;-)

MIght be time for a change soon though, so time to break out the Danish phrase book. Min måde eksplodere i glæde!

[womble]

Aussies? Equal third with the Poles and Scots. Too close to call. :-)

Are you counting the Gurkhas in there somewhere?

[Fetchez la Vache]

Crap.

*in best Cardinal Ximénez voice*

And Gurkas...

SO, the best Allied troops are Canadians, New Zealanders, Aussies, Scots, Gurkas and anyone from Dorset. Oh god, I'll start again...

[Magpie_Oz]

So how exactly are the rankings determined ?

[Baneman]

Crap.

*in best Cardinal Ximénez voice*

And Gurkas...

SO, the best Allied troops are Canadians, New Zealanders, Aussies, Scots, Gurkas and anyone from Dorset. Oh god, I'll start again...

South African chips in, "Oi !" ...

[Fetchez la Vache]

*makes dash for the exit*

[Magpie_Oz]

- Grabs Fetchez by the collar -

Actually mate I was going to suggest the easiest thing might be to do some research into The Battle of Kapyong.

This was a battle, ironically again close to ANZAC day, during the Korean War where an Aussie, Canuck and Kiwi Brigade successfully defeated an attack of a Chinese Division.

It makes it fairly plain, people are people and soldiers are soldiers and particularly within the Commonwealth there is no good, better, best.

[Fetchez la Vache]

Quite right. Well said.

I sincerely hope no-one thinks I am seriously trying to claim anyone one racial or social group makes a better soldier than another? If so, then they are mistaken and I apologise for any unintentional offense. I was trying to be a little bit light-hearted, in my normal way. :-(

I have read accounts of (for eg) Canadian troops in Normandy and NZ troops in North Africa which cause me to regard them (rightly or wrongly) as generally being "good" soldiers. However that obviously means that I simply haven't read enough accounts about other troops. :-)

Incidently, I just read a book about the Italian Armoured Divisions in North Africa which made me realise that I had been unfairly prejudenced about those soldiers in the past. They were very brave men fighting in those M13/M14 "Iron Coffins"...

[Magpie_Oz]

No problems mate, I see that many of the posts are tongue in cheek

Sure the Canadians, NZ and Aussies were all considered some of the best troops in the Commonwealth but the reasons for that are as varied as the soldiers themselves.

In short they were generally in better physical condition, had better training, had better officers, better motivation than many of the enemies they faced.

The M13/40 was a reasonable tank for it's time, it's main failure was that it did not keep pace with developments. They could face the early Cruiser tanks on an equal footing, but against the later M3's .........

The Italian poor showing in the first operations of the desert war was mainly due to incompetent leadership rather than poor soldiers.

[Fetchez la Vache]

They invaded Egypt initially with infantry only. They had no chance. :-/