Panzer side skirts & Headphones

[Gryphonne]

Ironically it was the Germans who tended to add side skirts "Schürzen" to defeat HEAT rounds I don't know of any Soviet tanks that had similar side skirts installed.

Western allied tanks like the M4 sometimes had sandbags for similar protection.

Soviet tank with skirts in question. No idea how common this practice was though.

[WillyPete2171]

So the skirts did protect against HE also?

It will be interesting to hear how Charles has modeled it in-game. I know for a fact that in CMBO skirts did provide a small amount of protection from HEAT (I'm not implying that was correct).

Interesting, as I didn't know the skirts were designed for HE either.

I just assumed that the skirts were purely cosmetic.

[Battlefront.com]

The pic of that T-34 in Berlin shows a specific countermeasure for Panzerfausts. The theory is that the round might bounce off the screen instead of detonate. Or at least change angle before creating it's jet. Was it effective? I don't know. Probably could be under very limited circumstances, just like strapping logs or extra track could occasionally do something other than weigh down the vehicle more.

I double checked with Charles and the skirts are modeled as they should be. Which isn't surprising

Not a whole lot, but it can occasionally reduce the effectiveness of an incoming round, especially a bazooka round, if it hits at an oblique angle.

Skirts were primarily designed to defeat Soviet antitank rifles, which they do pretty well. The effect versus bazookas is more accidental, which is why it's only partly effective.

Sound familiar? That's because I said the same thing on the previous page and YankeeDog said it on this page

Steve

[Erwin]

Uh... I have it on good authority that those are industrial size potato graters for Russian potato dishes. (Used after cleaning potatoes in the wonderful German automatic flushable potato washers in Berlin.)

[Michael Emrys]

...many HEAT rounds of the era (including the Panzerfaust, Panzershreck, and Bazooka) actually detonated charge too close to the armor plate for ideal performance. So a light, 4-5mm armor plate might actually improve the HEAT round's performance, by detonating it further from the main plate.

Plausible when the skirt is only a few inches from the main armor plate. But the turret skirt on the Pz IVh appears to have a gap of a foot or more. Seems to me that gets us into the range where dispersion of the jet becomes significant once more.

In other cases, though, the skirt might be of net benefit to the AFV, as in the case of a round headed for the turret that gets caught by the top of the skirt on the way in -- in this case, the HEAT round will get detonated so far away from the main armor that the penetrator will probably start to loose cohesion by the time it hits the armor.

What I said...

Michael

[YankeeDog]

@ ME:

I think we're basically in agreement... from what I can tell looking at images, the distance between the skirt and the main armor plate (or track, roadwheel, or other important thing) varies considerably depending on exact location and AFV type. Wider gaps = maybe some additional protection from HEAT. Smaller gaps = little, if any additional protection, and perhaps a liability.

[MikeyD]

A Iraq war anecdote just came to mind. I recall an RPG (or maybe an Armbrust?) round hit an Abrams lower side skirt, detonated, pierced the skirt and continued on through the lower hullside, through several more pieces of equipment, just grazed a crewmembers back, and kept on going. The crewman said, I think, it was like being hit with a sledgehammer. I do not think we've got a clear mental picture just what even a small a HEAT round is capable of.

[Mattias]

Now looking in Lärobok i Militärteknik, vol. 4 "Verkan och skydd" (textbook on military technology vol. 4 "Effect and protection", 2009) there seems to be some good information on optimum standoff ranges for shaped charged munitions. Mind you I am a layman, these are technical texts (no surprise there) and I´m eyeballing it off the charts.

However the basic facts are that penetration and optimum standoff range are directly related to the calibre of the shaped charge.

Excluding all other factors a modern normal (non high precision) charge achieves maximum penetration (around 7-8 times the calibre) at a standoff distance of 6.5 times the calibre (5-8 times the calibre being almost as good).

N.B.

Before starting to work on the numbers please consider that one very important improvement (among many) that has been made since WWII is in refining the exact shape of the metal lining in the shaped charge. This has led to the optimum standoff distance being shorter in modern designs when compared to WWII era weapons.

Looking at the numbers again a modern, standard, 84mm warhead (now why did I pick that figure?) penetrates something like 84 x 7.5 = 630 mm of armour at an optimum stand off range of 84 x 6.5 = 546 mm. Notice that a very high level of penetration is still achieved out to a range of 84 x 8 = 672 mm (and even at a standoff distance of 84 x 14 = 112 cm, a penetration of 84 x 5 = 420 mm is achieved).

A Bazooka round at 60 mm would have an optimum standoff range of 390 mm, if it had a modern design. Being a WWII design it should have a longer standoff distance.

Just a late night reflection,

M.

[Praetori]

Why? Nothing wrong with skirts now is there

Back on topic: I always understood that the side skirts were effective against HEAT rounds, and that this was also the reason for Soviet troops adding all sorts of side skirts to their tanks before the campaign in Berlin 1945 in order to defeat Panzerfausts/Panzerschrecks?

SHE'S WEARING NON UNIFORM SHOES!!

I just realized that officer school has forever destroyed me, seriously it was the first thing I noted.

[Battlefront.com]

I am a uniform grog. I noticed the non-coforming shoes too. And I swear it wasn't because I was looking at all those legs on purpose. That's my story and I'm sticking too it

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

Plausible when the skirt is only a few inches from the main armor plate. But the turret skirt on the Pz IVh appears to have a gap of a foot or more. Seems to me that gets us into the range where dispersion of the jet becomes significant once more.

Actually, no. That's the problem with the stand off ranges... they are significant. Mattias' estimate is for a Bazooka to require 1.2 feet in stand off distance at a minimum. That seems about right to me.

Remember, one way around a suboptimal physical reality is to increase one of the variables you can control to compensate. In this case it's make a bigger warhead so that the strength of the hit properties is magnified to overcome the inefficiencies introduced by suboptimal standoff range.

In other words, if the Bazooka round could have included a 1.5 foot long detonator rod sticking out in front of it then the weapon would have been able to defeat much thicker armor. But since this was impractical they had to instead increase the size of the warhead (post war).

Steve

[Michael Emrys]

Actually, no. That's the problem with the stand off ranges... they are significant. Mattias' estimate is for a Bazooka to require 1.2 feet in stand off distance at a minimum. That seems about right to me.

I came up with a figure of 16", which is about 1.3', which is pretty close to the same thing.

HOWEVER...the existing fuse on a bazooka round is already providing what?, about 4-6" of that? Plus the gap between the skirt and the turret looks to be close to 2" (I wish I had the exact number). So that moves it out to almost twice the optimum standoff. I think the numbers for the hull skirts are not going to be as good, but still not ideal for the bazooka either.

Bottom line: It's probably a tossup WRT how effective the skirts were against HC rounds, but aside from the extra cost and assembly time, were probably not a detriment either. And as posted earlier, seem to have been a definite advantage against ATRs.

Michael

[mfred2010]

Here is an interesting link to, "History of the Shaped Charge Effect: The First 100 Years" by Donald R. Kennedy.

Search "History of the Shaped Charge Effect", without quotation marks, here: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/ It does load slow, though (you might have to refresh).

Some shortcomings of the Bazooka are discussed in Part II, p23, too.

[Magpie_Oz]

I did know about the Soviets using wire mesh on their tanks but I thought they were for anti tank magnetic mines like the Zimmeritt on German tanks.

All this is well and good but the REAL question is in the photo of German Short Skirts on Parade ..... isn't that a guy's head in the bottom right hand corner,lying on the ground. What on earth is he up to ?

Or is it only me who looked down that far (after a long pause in the middle) ?

[Wicky]

Fiddlin' with his focal length

...

All this is well and good but the REAL question is in the photo of German Short Skirts on Parade ..... isn't that a guy's head in the bottom right hand corner,lying on the ground. What on earth is he up to ?

Or is it only me who looked down that far (after a long pause in the middle) ?

[Gryphonne]

I did know about the Soviets using wire mesh on their tanks but I thought they were for anti tank magnetic mines like the Zimmeritt on German tanks.

All this is well and good but the REAL question is in the photo of German Short Skirts on Parade ..... isn't that a guy's head in the bottom right hand corner,lying on the ground. What on earth is he up to ?

Or is it only me who looked down that far (after a long pause in the middle) ?

Apparently, those are Ukranian Short Skirts on parade though seemingly, the use of skirts by Eastern European powers is more common than we thought

[WillyPete2171]

I did know about the Soviets using wire mesh on their tanks but I thought they were for anti tank magnetic mines like the Zimmeritt on German tanks.

All this is well and good but the REAL question is in the photo of German Short Skirts on Parade ..... isn't that a guy's head in the bottom right hand corner,lying on the ground. What on earth is he up to ?

Or is it only me who looked down that far (after a long pause in the middle) ?

love those legs! However, the REAL question here is if the game models panzer side skirt protection or are they just eye candy. I don't think I received a direct answer on this yet.

[Sergei]

love those legs! However, the REAL question here is if the game models panzer side skirt protection or are they just eye candy. I don't think I received a direct answer on this yet.

Steve gave that answer when he quoted Charles, the question he answered was presumably "do they do anything in the game?"

Not a whole lot, but it can occasionally reduce the effectiveness of an incoming round, especially a bazooka round, if it hits at an oblique angle.

[Praetori]

I did know about the Soviets using wire mesh on their tanks but I thought they were for anti tank magnetic mines like the Zimmeritt on German tanks.

All this is well and good but the REAL question is in the photo of German Short Skirts on Parade ..... isn't that a guy's head in the bottom right hand corner,lying on the ground. What on earth is he up to ?

Or is it only me who looked down that far (after a long pause in the middle) ?

I've read from multiple sources that the Soviet wire-mesh was often an ad-hoc solution. Often using gates/wireframe-doors and beds from local housing and welding it onto the tanks as they believed it added protection from Panzerfausts. If this was effective or not I have no idea, it was mostly employed late war as the Soviet forces reached the larger cities of eastern Europe and Germany proper.

[Lt Belenko]

[Austin Powers Voice] Yeah Baby!! Yeah [/Austin Powers Voice]

[Rocky Balboa]

Looks like that clip would make a great opening for a ZZ Top video ...

[Battlefront.com]

I've read from multiple sources that the Soviet wire-mesh was often an ad-hoc solution. Often using gates/wireframe-doors and beds from local housing and welding it onto the tanks as they believed it added protection from Panzerfausts. If this was effective or not I have no idea, it was mostly employed late war as the Soviet forces reached the larger cities of eastern Europe and Germany proper.

I've also seen some pics of mattresses tied to the front (and sides?) of a tank. Again, the idea was to make the PF round hit softly so that it didn't detonate or detonate effectively. I have no idea if these counter measures were effective, however my guess is that they were more useful to boost crew morale than they were to actually make a material difference.

Steve