A Quick Battle AAR: Shermans vs Pz IVs, Not Your Fathers Combat Mission

[Broadsword56]

I have learned during three years of playing CM:SF to pay attention to "the click". Some may call it a "sixth sense", a "funny feeling" whatever.

When I am about to make a move in CM:SF or CM:A and I get that internal "alert" I stop and think. Often I will end up not making the move, as I have learned, that to ignore the "click" is a recipe for disaster.

I find that paying attention to this, also results in more realistic game play.

Also, it's more realistic (and safer) not to "count tanks" as we see the players doing in this AAR. It's not only gamey (like counting cards in blackjack), but has led the players into some wrong guesses already. The real troops had no idea whether they were facing the "last" 2 tanks of a platoon or the lead elements of a whole battalion and had to just deal with the developing situation as they could see it, so personally that's how I like to roll.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Also, it's more realistic (and safer) not to "count tanks" as we see the players doing in this AAR. It's not only gamey (like counting cards in blackjack), but has led the players into some wrong guesses already. The real troops had no idea whether they were facing the "last" 2 tanks of a platoon or the lead elements of a whole battalion and had to just deal with the developing situation as they could see it, so personally that's how I like to roll.

It's realistic to not be constantly reassessing your opponents force? I was MI in the Army, and believe me that's what you do, you better be doing. As the battle goes on the enemy's force picture goes from muddy to clear.. that will happen in this scenario too.. excepting I never do get full intel on Warren's infantry force.

[The Instigator]

Counting tanks is gamey ?! What's next.....chips without salsa 8-)~

[Broadsword56]

It's realistic to not be constantly reassessing your opponents force? I was MI in the Army, and believe me that's what you do, you better be doing. As the battle goes on the enemy's force picture goes from muddy to clear.. that will happen in this scenario too.. excepting I never do get full intel on Warren's infantry force.

Point well taken...so maybe a player's incorrect assumption about "last" tanks accurately simulates the false assumptions that real WWII commanders and G-2 guys would make back in their HQ, while the troops on the line had to carry out the resulting orders and pay the consequences.

[Rocken]

bil is the best player in the world of CM...

just keep the s............ and let the maestro work!

[Broadsword56]

No offense intended. The AAR is a delight to follow, even as it makes the wait for the game all the more excruciating.

[Tactical Wargamer]

Curious Bill what program are you using for the nice arrows and icons on your pics/maps?

[Bil Hardenberger]

RCMP, Photoshop...

[Bil Hardenberger]

No offense intended. The AAR is a delight to follow, even as it makes the wait for the game all the more excruciating.

Broadsword, who did you offend?

[Battlefront.com]

I have learned during three years of playing CM:SF to pay attention to "the click". Some may call it a "sixth sense", a "funny feeling" whatever.

When I am about to make a move in CM:SF or CM:A and I get that internal "alert" I stop and think. Often I will end up not making the move, as I have learned, that to ignore the "click" is a recipe for disaster.

I find that paying attention to this, also results in more realistic game play.

Well put!! I find that playing RT has made me quite... nervous, I guess is the right word for it. If I'm going "balls out" I am not really thinking about how many tanks he might have left, what other avenues of approach he might be using, etc. So when I think I hear a "click" I sit and wait for a bit. And while that is going on I take the time to think about what's going on now and what might change. I formulate a plan and then I try to do something that won't get my poor little pixeltruppen wiped out.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

'Course, when you hear the click you may already be in the kill sack. In which case you might want to just stomp on the gas and get out -- forward, back, whatever. Immediate action drill, bad plan better than no plan, "I Killed Tube Guy", etc. etc.

[Broadsword56]

Broadsword, who did you offend?

I just wanted to be sure you didn't take my post about my view of "gamey" tactics personally, and didn't think I was questioning your expertise in CM or real-world military intel.

[Wiggum]

So you can see the penetration text on enemy tanks too ?

Is this a bug ?

[gunnersman]

So you can see the penetration text on enemy tanks too ?

Is this a bug ?

Negative. Not a bug. Hit text boxes are brought back to life from CMx1 days.

There is a brief talk about it earlier in this thread.

[scottie]

So you can see the penetration text on enemy tanks too ?

Is this a bug ?

As above, not a bug. Its not detailed enough on enemy units to know everything the opposition would know about their own unit. Its enough info to know where a round impacted , stuff you could see with a pair of binos and a fast eye. Its a great quick reference guide. May also say a tank is KNOCKED OUT mind you , not sure you can always know this from a commanders point of view.

[Other Means]

As above, not a bug. Its not detailed enough on enemy units to know everything the opposition would know about their own unit. Its enough info to know where a round impacted , stuff you could see with a pair of binos and a fast eye. Its a great quick reference guide. May also say a tank is KNOCKED OUT mind you , not sure you can always know this from a commanders point of view.

CM1 & SF didn't. You had to keep hitting through the death clock.

QED.

[scottie]

CM1 & SF didn't. You had to keep hitting through the death clock.

QED.

didnt say "KNOCKED OUT" ? not sure what bit you are referring to sorry.

[stikkypixie]

didnt say "KNOCKED OUT" ? not sure what bit you are referring to sorry.

In CMx1 at least, you could knock out a tank without knowing it. The hit text would just say "Penetration". It is only when your guys know for sure that the shots resulted in a KO that the "Knocked out" text would appear.

[VonJakeOz]

Ok, let me share a litte something about myself. In the real world I am a military engineer of about 23 yrs experience. My background is combat engineering (the troop and tank variety) but like most old warhorses I have done the whole gambit..well except Geomatics. I'll be in the cold ground before I hang with those weirdos.

Oi Capn.... as a spatial scientist (and possibly weird) I take umbridge at this darstardly statement... How dare you malign the good name of those crafty geomatics folks. Peh. As a GIS bod working in and around engineers all the time... I can barely cope with their, dare I say it , linear approach? Wheres the polygons or shaded grids to a straight line eh?

So for the honor of my profession, I may be forced to drop the white silk glove of the challenge to a duel of CMBN (whenever it arrives.) The terms of the challenge are yours to set... just whatever you do, dont let me make the map

VonJake

[The_Capt]

Oi Capn.... as a spatial scientist (and possibly weird) I take umbridge at this darstardly statement... How dare you malign the good name of those crafty geomatics folks. Peh. As a GIS bod working in and around engineers all the time... I can barely cope with their, dare I say it , linear approach? Wheres the polygons or shaded grids to a straight line eh?

So for the honor of my profession, I may be forced to drop the white silk glove of the challenge to a duel of CMBN (whenever it arrives.) The terms of the challenge are yours to set... just whatever you do, dont let me make the map

VonJake

You are on, sir. True story, I was on Ex one time and for whatever reason I had to go see the map guys. They were in some dark room staring at a map on an OHP..doing whatever black arts they employ.

I open the door, sun is behind me. Three pairs of coke-bottle glasses all glowing in the dark are pointing at me. I back away slowly and close the door.

[Bil Hardenberger]

Minute 6

HQ Element

The two tanks from the HQ element get into their hull down positions and immediately start overwatching the area outlined in my last post by the purple arrow.

It doesn’t take them long to identify an M-20 coming fast around that copse of trees. HQ 1 (the Company XO’s tank) deliberately takes aim from 536m, fires, and destroys the M-20. In the image below, through the smoke you can just make out 1st Platoon’s Tank1… this is why I was so worried about this approach, Tank 1’s flank is in clear view from where the M-20 sits. You can also just make out the turrets of the HQ element tanks over the ridge in the background.

Their fun isn’t over yet however… as the turn winds down HQ 1 spots an M4A3 barreling down AA3. Shown here is HQ 1’s hit from 435m (no noticeable effect) and the hit that CO HQ got a few seconds later from 360m (front turret hit – penetration), again, the M4A3 was still rolling forward at the end of the turn, so it seems the round didn’t have enough energy after penetration to have much effect.

These images show the two hits, HQ 1’s on top, and CO HQ on the bottom. The perspective in these views show you the ideal hull down position they are in to catch any Shermans who try to push their luck up AA3. Look for the flashes in the distance, those would be the rounds impacting on the M4A3.

1st Platoon

Tank 1 got another hit on the M4A3(76)W from 450m, it was popping smoke and reversing when it was hit. Right on impact I lost LOS to it (that damn smoke again) and didn’t see it the rest of the turn… so I don’t know if I caused any damage or not.

HQ Tank fired one round at the moving M4A3(76)W’s flank, which unfortunately went high. It was drawing a bead on an M4A3 when suddenly it was hit from an unseen shooter and the tank lost all weapon controls. Where the hell did that round come from?

Damn, and that leaves 1st Platoon with one operational tank.

I am still worried about Warren steamrolling up AA3, but with the Company HQ element in place and 1st Platoon's Tank 1 in its excellent position I believe I have a chance to blunt his advance. If he moves up the same route the M-20 took, then he might have a chance to get Tank 1. But then he will have to contend with the Company HQ tanks.

I want his full attention on my 1st Platoon and Company HQ tanks while 2nd Platoon is still moving into position. I would like their appearance to be somewhat of a surprise.

2nd Platoon

2nd Platoon was still working its way forward at the end of this turn so saw no action.

Next: Minute 7

[The_Capt]

Well I didn't know about the "gun-kill" until after but at this point Bil is down (effectively) 5 tanks.

My plan is not subtle, I keep up the pressure, use the smoke to jockey in and out of and try to get those last few tanks to show themselves.

I am getting concerned at this point on how accurate his fire is, at this point it does begin to dawn on me that I don't think these are Regular crews.

The M20 was unfortunate but again I am pushing here. At this point the M4A3's are really surprising me as well. Keep in mind I went into this with some pre-concieved notions as well.

No matter I still have the "upper hand" and it is just a matter of time until I get that last Pz IV to my front then I can deal with the 2 or so he has left on my right, most likely swinging up AA2 and coming at them thru the trees. But not too close to that woodline as I still think there could be infantry in there.

Keep pushing up AA2...keep the pressure on..and we'll be home by Xmas.

[dan/california]

Well I didn't know about the "gun-kill" until after but at this point Bil is down (effectively) 5 tanks.

My plan is not subtle, I keep up the pressure, use the smoke to jockey in and out of and try to get those last few tanks to show themselves.

I am getting concerned at this point on how accurate his fire is, at this point it does begin to dawn on me that I don't think these are Regular crews.

The M20 was unfortunate but again I am pushing here. At this point the M4A3's are really surprising me as well. Keep in mind I went into this with some pre-concieved notions as well.

No matter I still have the "upper hand" and it is just a matter of time until I get that last Pz IV to my front then I can deal with the 2 or so he has left on my right, most likely swinging up AA2 and coming at them thru the trees. But not too close to that woodline as I still think there could be infantry in there.

Keep pushing up AA2...keep the pressure on..and we'll be home by Xmas.

You touch on something certain to be a topic of vigorous discussion. What is the better place to spend your points? Crew quality or vehicle quality? I foresee endless threads on this one.

[Michael Emrys]

You touch on something certain to be a topic of vigorous discussion. What is the better place to spend your points? Crew quality or vehicle quality?

I suspect that in most instances some kind of balance should be maintained. I.e., buy vehicles that will at least meet the minimum requirements for the situation you foresee, and then buy the best crews you can afford. Probably the big question is whether to go for quantity or quality. Personally, I think that most of the time I would lean slightly in the direction of quantity as that allows me to absorb losses and still be functioning. But again, it depends on the mission and the anticipated opposition.

Michael

[GhostRider3/3]

Awesome Action reporting... cant wait for the next minute!