Post Preview AAR and Discussion

[Battlefront.com]

Now that 30+ people have seen CM:BN in person, in several previews in several countries, perhaps you guys would like to share your thoughts in one place and perhaps answer questions from your fellow non-previewing wargamers?

Note that I might have missed the boat with this single thread idea since most attendees have already posted their thoughts. This amount of preview activity is a new thing for us so we're still learning

Steve

[Krilly]

Ok, guess I will kick it off.

Can't believe it's been a week a already. I want to play the damn thing for real now. Anyways the preview.

First I like to thank Dave and Jurrie again, it was very nicely organized and Dave his enthousiasm was infectious. Also, I liked meeting so many CM enthousiast and all the 'groggy talk' that went around.

I will come back to some impressions I jotted down about the game the day after and comment on them;

-Graphics are great, especially fog/smoke effects.

-Vehicles are a joy to look at when they are moving/aiming/firing.

-Randomization with clutter on the vehicles is very nice.

-Graphic performance seemed very smooth, even with lots of infantry and vehicles around (on a laptop).

-Very nice to see that all vehicles sport the same ammo schemes. (Less chaotic then in original cmbo).

In the looks department all seems fine :-). We still saw some unskinned vehicles (M8, StuH42) but not many. More importantly, those that were skinned looked very pretty indeed. I remember Bart starting up a map just to look at all the main german armor and we all stood there drooling at them for a bit. A tiger moving about, firing his gun and rocking slightly. Jummy!

I saw smoke effects on many occasions (airstrikes, arty, vehicles and infantry popping smoke) and it looked very pretty indeed.

The overall look of the game is gorgeous, especially if you zoom in on the action.

Oh and I almost forgot, I saw that the Sd.Kfz. 251/7 is moddeled with its distinctive bridge pieces :-D

-Airstrikes rock! :-D

-On board mortars firing are a joy to behold.

-it's a bit of a pain to see which on board mortar you are plotting for with a HQ, right until you plot the actual mission.

One scenario we played head to head involved americans assaulting a german entrenched position. It involved some air support and plenty of onboard mortars for the amis. Since the volume was crancked up nicely and the american side was showing on the beamer, we got to witness this awesome firepower like we were in a cinema. Needless to say the sights and sounds of airstrikes are impressive.

Also mortars firing on map are a joy since you can see your own rounds arcing over.

What I found slightly annoying however, that with multiple mortars I couldn't tell which mortar on the map I was plotting for with my HQ. Only when the target was selected I could tell by the targetting line. Maybe it was inexperience with the CMx2 engine here.

-Arty/CAS chatter is still cmsf and way to modern.

-Small arms sounds were a bit flat, except for the 50cal so it seemed. MG34/42 was not impressive soundwise.

I was told there was still quite some work te be done in the sound department. The .50 firing sounded like the beast I reckon it to be but stuff like the 'MG34/42' firing still sounded a bit flat to me.

-Realtime not so hard as I thought.

-UI improved?

I remember dowloading the CM:FS ages ago and being put off by the UI. But with the CM:BN demo I just sat down behind a laptop, fired up a QB and started to play. On RT no less.

And I had no problems with it! Ok, I used ESC a lot, like the gamey bastard I am, but I mean I was able to play the game without a hich in RT without having a real problem with the UI whatsoever. I dont know if anything has changed or it was me wanting to really play it. Just a funny observation.

QB

The QB generator has so many options I was a bit overwhelmed. Most promising is that it lets you either cherry pick a force or let's you autopick one. Also being able to manually pick a QB map of which Jurrie told me there are 'close to a 100' is very promising.

The QB map I ended up playing was very nice and interesting (some bocage fields, a walled orchard and a small farm as objective) and made for an interesting game.

Scenario joys.

We saw quite some scenario's go by as we were playing and I dont want to spoil to much of it. One that was mentioned a lot already is a scenario based on 'Barkman's Corner' which was a lot of fun. A lot of unsurported shermans going head to head with german infantry and a lone Panther. Carnage

Another scenario which looked interesting was already being played by Bart when I stepped in. It involved an american attack on an german held farm + surrounding area. It seemed to dissolve in a number of small interesting skirmishes. As I remember, Jurrie mentioned it was based on 'Dead Man's Corner' for you Grogs out there.

Overall the scenario's I saw were promising but still ondergoing testing. We actually had some discussion on how to make scenario's interesting from the defender's point of view.

All in all I walked away from the preview with the feeling CM:BN is going to be a blast. I didn't for a minute miss all the stuff we woried about on the boards (flames, AA, more vehicles), it's just that the stuff that is in is done well and looking pretty.

I seriously think that CM:BN is going to rock the gaming world again like CMBO did in its day. It was certainly looking that way on the previews.

[LJFHutch]

Sound is one thing I'm very interested in, how do the sounds compare to CMSF or the sound mods? I always thought the stock sounds were a bit lifeless to be honest.

[Homo ferricus]

I can tell you the sounds are positively better than CMSF (especially small arms, but then again it shouldn't be that hard to have better small arms sounds than what stock CMSF had ), but the build we got to see still had place holders from CMSF (or so it seemed), and I believe sound is bound to be polished even more for the final product.

[Gryphonne]

It's only been a week? damn it! Curse you Einstein and your relativity of time!

First of all, we had a great time in The Hague playing the preview of CMBN, Dave was an excellent host and a good cook too (oh, an he was *not* fat)

Misc stuff:

- The landscape felt very natural, object placement in the scenarios really came together. With CMSF the terrain still felt a tad artificial to me, all the buildings were the same, most of the terrain was the same. I don't know, i couldn't manage to pull it all together for myself. Not to disrespect BFCs hard work on that title, but I didn't feel very connected to it. CMBN, an entirely different story; I was instantly sucked into the lush environment. So many different trees, objects, buildings.

- Woods are SCARY in CMBN. Woods were VERY daunting to send men into. You know that as soon you'd send in your guys your casualties would stack up high. This is so different from CMx1 where the game, by comparison with CMx2, feels very mechanical and chess like. You have to imagine most of the action and the terrain is merely tiles of "stuff". Naturally, this is also extremely different from CMSF where there is little foliage to speak of. And in particular, there aren't any 30m high trees with thick tree trunks Turn on shadows and that's one forest even the wolf in little red riding hood wouldn't want to traverse.

- Effects are of course great as per CMSF. Smoke is lovely in CMBN because no-one has thermal sights!

- Smoke in CMBN sucks because no-one has thermal sights!

- Performance of CMBN seemed VERY smooth, like I said, I don't know what it is, but CMSF always felt sluggish for me, the LODs I didn't like.. But with CMBN that seems to be solved, scrolling over the battlefield was a pleasant experience!

- Equipment.. oh equipment.. where to start! There is SO MUCH to choose from. So many formations that I didn't even know existed! Surprised me there again! And in response to Krilly's post, I indeed just set up some maps to stare at the equipment and watch it let loose!

- Vehicle graphics are BEAUTIFUL. I am also very happy that BFC chose to keep things uniform, no more 30 different camouflage patterns for vehicles from the start or a difference in vehicle skin quality. They are ALL equally beautiful. The little random details like bent skirts, missing skirts, buckets, sandbas, whatever! It's all there!

EDIT: more stuff I could think of. Some vehicle skins have very nice little details, such as the mirrors on the German half-tracks. Naturally, these mirrors don't actually "function", but it was a very nice tiny detail.

EDIT: It looks great when infantry have their secondary weapon on their back. It was cool (and handy) to see which soldiers were carrying fausts on their backs. This immediately raises another question for me though: Will last-ditch AT weapons be in? Tellerminen, Panzerwurfmine etc?

- The half tracks and other open-topped vehicles are also very beautiful. You can see the crew inside doing their stuff and it looks very natural

- Animations are AWESOME. I *LOVED* the infantry shooting out of half-tracks! I also think there are some surprises in the animation department here.

- On board artillery is great and feels very nice and more realistic after CMx1s simplified on board mortar model. Note: ammo bearers rock! You can quickly send more ammo to a position where you need it. You don't need to move the entire asset to a new position. Feels a lot more natural and more in line with what I'd expect.

- There were some minor quirks and the UI sadly wasn't always as smooth. I still wish there were command lines to easily see which unit is in contact with its HQ or not.

- The UI has been nicely enhanced in several places though, ammo counters are different in CMBN and a lot more helpful than in CMSF. Especially when it comes to CAS!

- Voices and sounds were still CMSF, but given the work that BFC has already put into the game, and knowing BFC in the first place, these will probably be all changed. Some sounds were already present though I think, MG34 maybe? sounded like an MG34 and wasn't like any other sound I heard before. CAS sounds were already VERY nice! And even if people won't like the stock sounds in CMBN I'm sure, given the theatre, there's going to be so many modders and mods that people are going to drown in them

- Fortifications are beautiful! bridges are awesome and there are so many different ones to choose from!

QB generator

What can I say? LOVED it! Thank you so much BFC for having this option back! and although I was skeptical at first when Steve said that we wouldn't have the same kind of options in CMBN as we did with CMx1, I was pleasantly surprised when i played with the CMBN one. Dare I say there is even more possibilities in CMBN than in CMx1? And dare I say that it's actually more fun to use? Not to mention that whatever you do, due to the C&C your force composition will always feel realistic! There were many more formations present than I expected there would be. I loved the rarity/points setup! No more crappy vehicles that cost you half your points. Instead, they cost you half your rarity points But that's OK, that way you still get that little oddball you absolutely want plus a buttload of Shermans or Pz IVs!

@Steve: it must have been tough again actually assigning points to units?

I also loved the map selection for the QBs! Very nice, I would even go as far as to say that this is actually A LOT better than CMx1. The first thign I missed in CMSF was a random map generator. The last thing I missed in CMBN was a random map generator Honestly, the pre-built QB maps are of a higher quality than anything could ever randomly come up with! In addition, the little preview picture (and I think there was also an actual preview function?) shows what you're up against. VERY nice!

The AI was surprisingly good in the QBs, I think that's also due to the fact that the AI now actually has plans on the QB maps. But even with the plans, I don't know, the AI felt more sophisticated. I don't know if I'm right here, but it seems stratAI was beefed up! In a QB map I had two StuGs and a platoon of half tracks with infantry. I moved my infantry forward slowly and took the StuGs on a road on the left side. Then I saw enemy half tracks driving towards me on the right and I drove my StuGs up this little bank along the side of that road. I watched with glee as the low profile beasts turned their guns and started unloading their arsenal into the half tracks. All of a sudden however enemy infantry appears on the other side of the map in the backs of my StuGs! I was really lucky in that scenario as I had only given the AI a handful of units that I could destroy easily Otherwise I would have been in deep trouble! And this is coming from someone that NEVER EVER considered the AI to be a threat, especially not in QBs

Scenarios

The scenarios looked great as far as I could tell. I played Barkmann's corner and also here the AI sometimes surprised me. I drove my Panther forward up a road covered by buildings on both sides. Then I had my Panther wait in ambush. Finally the first American tanks appeared and after knocking out 4 or 5, the AI decided to take another route. I held up a very stiff defence and so the 2 Shermans that tried to flank me on the left were quickly knocked out by a combination of Panzerfaust and Panzerschreck fire. All of a sudden however half a dozen of Shermans appeared on the right and threatened my Panther there. I backed up and carefully micro managing my vehicles a VERY close range firefight broke out. I actually had to plan how to move my Panther around the buildings and when to reverse it as not to expose too much of my vehicle. Several times the AI tried to move a Sherman around the house and knock out my Panther. Needlessto say, caught in the crossfire of almost ten tanks, the infantry in the house didn't too too well... it was a tense little scenario however. Although (I think) Jurrie told me there was still some work to do. Nevertheless, he was actually surprised as well by the actions of the AI for which he himself made the plans; go figure

And last but not least, people that even remotely dare to think CMBN is just CMSF in a WWII setting are, for lack of a better word, wrong...

EDIT: BFC, release the game already!

[Lanzfeld]

Well what can I say?

Absolutely fierce close range firefights through hedgerows. Nervous Allied tankers trying to flank through lanes of hedgerows with not enough infantry support. Fantastically beautiful 60mm motars arcing over the entire battlefield. Not like CMx1, where you see them shoot up and vanish then reappear landing on target. This time you can zoom out and see the entire flight. A whole train of them when they fire for effect. I could not stop watching!

You NEVER know what is going to happen in bocage fighting. At one point, on a quiet side of the map, the Allies tried to run three tanks down a lane that I just happened to have a squad with some panzerfaust 30's, a schreck team, and their 3 man HQ unit in hiding. Two of the three tanks were no more in a flash bang firefight that made us all watching jump! The third fought his way past (while hurting me a bit) and made his way around a corner where I was trying to "quick" another squad to join the battle. He caught my squad in the open lane and hammered them HARD! With such limited LOS in this type of country the fighting is just nasty. Dont think for a second that shermans are easy kills either because that HE they carry plus driver and coax MG's add up to devistating firepower.

We had one dramatic hotseat turn end with a the same sherman behind my lines pointing its 75mm at my panther. I had a covered arc on my panther pointing away from the sherman. So, in a nutshell, I had my forward quarter armour facing the sherman yet my gun was point about 90 degrees away. What will happen?!?!?!?!?!? I set a direct target order with a reverse. Here is a good example of chaos in combat. <click play>. The shermans gun bounces off my panther <whew!> as my panther starts to swing his gun and reverse, a schreck team further up the road gets LOS at sherman and fires. The schreck shot hits the ground right next to sherman (maybe the tracks too) and creates a big dustcloud at impact. My panther losses sight of sherman! 10 or 15 seconds pass as the dust settles and my schreck is reloading. Then BOOM!!! My panther gets LOS and ends it all right there. Crazy!

This is the game we have been waiting for. Warn your wives and children that they will not see too much of you when it comes out.

A million thanks to John (Elvis) for hosting and to BFC for creating. John provided beer and killer BLT's at the event. There was even a simulation of the french resistance in the form of Johns son telling my opponent where I was hiding! LOL!

[Blackcat]

"Warn your wives and children that they will not see too much of you when it comes out."

Yup, after my brief glimpse in Liverpool, I concur wholeheartedly. Many years ago the original Civilisation almost led to a divorce; I fear that CMBN will be an even bigger addictive time thief. As Gryphonne said, "People that even remotely dare to think CMBN is just CMSF in a WWII setting are, for lack of a better word, wrong". In the state I saw it the game is awesome and hard to put down, by the time it is released it will be the dog's b0ll0cks, the rat's pyjamas, the cat's whiskers (or whatever superlative suits your taste) of tactical land gaming. Such will be its effect I would think that it will need to carry a government health warning.

[Cambronne]

Did you notice if the editor still has the "import the campaign units" feature like in CMSF?

And in QB can you select the autopurchase by force mix like in CM1(ie infantry,mech, armor,etc,)

[Gryphonne]

Did you notice if the editor still has the "import the campaign units" feature like in CMSF?

And in QB can you select the autopurchase by force mix like in CM1(ie infantry,mech, armor,etc,)

I didn't take a look at the editor in that much detail, but I guess any feature from CMSF is carried over to CMBN as far as the editor goes.

The quick battle option for autopurchase is there. In addition, I *think* I also saw someone use a "suggestion" option while he was purchasing his own units. That's just basically the same as auto purchase but it lets you view and modify the choice.

[Battlefront.com]

There are various auto purchase options, similar to CMx1. It took quite a bit of effort to get that into the game because inherently formations can have stuff that doesn't really fit into one or another category. For example, some Infantry Branch formations are pretty much all vehicles. If you selected a QB game that was supposed to be Infantry, you'd be pretty cheesed if the enemy showed up with a platoon of armored cars!

Yes, you can make your own Campaigns just like in CM:SF. As a general rule we have not eliminated any features present in CM:SF that are "game wide", such as Campaigns. The only parts of CM:SF that are missing are those which are either in appropriate for WW2 or have been "upgraded" going forward (like QBs, for example).

Steve

[MeatEtr]

Nice to have a consolidated thread for the previewers reactions to the game. Rather than have them spread out over all the various preview threads.

One post reminded of infantry riding on tanks. I know this will not be in the first release, but when is it planned? Or had this been put aside for the Eastern Front games?

[MikeyD]

Its funny how CM:BN and the word 'divorce' keep being paired.

About infantry on tanks, it was in an early Alpha very briefly but it elicited a big "Uh oh, problems!" There's a launtry list of dedicated animations, behaviors and reactions that have to get coded in specially to keep it from looking like a Keytone Cops movie. Luckily for BFC infantry-on-tanks is like snow, something not particularly applicable until later in the war.

[AstroCat]

Here is a somewhat trivial question but something I am curious about. I noticed when playing SF when vehicles/tanks are destroyed they don't look very destroyed, just some fire. Is vehicle damage more accurately portrayed (more eye candy) in Normandy?

[Gryphonne]

Here is a somewhat trivial question but something I am curious about. I noticed when playing SF when vehicles/tanks are destroyed they don't look very destroyed, just some fire. Is vehicle damage more accurately portrayed (more eye candy) in Normandy?

Nope, Steve mentioned this before. I think they want it in eventually, but it will be some time. Having said that, I think I did see tanks with drooped barrels though when they were knocked out. The vehicles however (half tracks at least) had various hatches open where the crew escaped, so they really looked abandoned/knocked out

[Stitch]

One post reminded of infantry riding on tanks. I know this will not be in the first release, but when is it planned? Or had this been put aside for the Eastern Front games?

The infantry on tanks will hopefully be implemented later, but if they do it anywhere with the detail of the infantry in half-tracks, it will be well worth the wait!

In my preview, a full American squad in a halftrack rushed down a country road between 2 houses full of Germans. The halftrack was then stopped (due to a hidden Panther!) and reversed. The Germans in the houses then concentrated on the halftrack with small arms, and the Americans returned fire while still IN the halftrack! Between the animations and the pixeltruppen AI, I was stunned.

[Battlefront.com]

I bet the little pixeltruppen in the halftrack were even more stunned

Having "destructable" vehicle models is something the game engine is inherently coded to deal with. So it can, and will, be implemented at a later date. The primary problem is we have to create the code, and model structure, to have these destroyed states made on the fly (at least to some extent). The reason is that making customized destroyed models, and their various LODs, is extremely time consuming. And we're concerned that putting a ton of effort into a single destroyed state might not be "good enough" from a player's standpoint. Especially if the visual destruction doesn't match what actually happened to the vehicle from a gameplay standpoint.

We'd rather not do a half-arsed attempt, bump other worthy game features in the process, and then have to come back and go full-arsed on it later on.

Steve

[Elmar Bijlsma]

Impact decals à la Theatre of War seem to offer far better bang for the development buck in that regard.

I always got a big kick out of inspecting hits on KO-ed tanks in ToW.

[panzermartin]

I hope down the WW2 road we will eventually get hit decals, blackened hulls and thrown tracks. Even just a gun barel drop like CMx1..

[Lanzfeld]

YES YES YES to the above two comments ^^^^^^^^^^

[AstroCat]

Agreed, even just decals or one damaged state would be better than nothing. But of course doing a full damage model system would be best.

It just seems very odd when a vehicle totally blows up and then afterward looks exactly the same, I admit it is kind of disappointing and unsatisfying.

[sfhand]

As I was riding BART to the NorCal preview with my buddy we were talking about BF. We marvelled that a company so small could do so much and as a result of that conversation, and really thinking in depth about the resource challenges they must face, I have developed a much more positive impression of their work, and I was (apparently) a fanboi to begin with.

These forums are a great place for ideas, and there are many very good ideas that float around here, including moveable waypoints , but I decided before seeing the CMBN build that I wasn't ever going to question their development choices again. That resolve has only been strengthened as a result of seeing the CMBN build.

That said, and not meaning to derail, but one of my take aways from the preview was a strengthened conviction that RT play is not for me, and not because of control issues but because I am addicted to seeing the action unfold and while watching someone else play RT I noticed I was longing to see what was happening elsewhere on the map. In general, one of the interesting things about the preview was seeing how others approach the game, it was fascinating.

Thanks again to BF and the Beta's for all the work and the previews.

[Rocky Balboa]

Having "destructable" vehicle models is something the game engine is inherently coded to deal with. So it can, and will, be implemented at a later date. The primary problem is we have to create the code, and model structure, to have these destroyed states made on the fly (at least to some extent). The reason is that making customized destroyed models, and their various LODs, is extremely time consuming. And we're concerned that putting a ton of effort into a single destroyed state might not be "good enough" from a player's standpoint. Especially if the visual destruction doesn't match what actually happened to the vehicle from a gameplay standpoint. Steve

IMO this would be a nice enhancement but I would put it way down the list of things to spend your time on.

For those that haven't played CMSF yet I think they'll be pleasantly surprised with how CMx2 handles WW2. I've never had a problem differentiating between whats been destroyed and whats still still alive but once you see flames or smoke coming from the vehicles and especially when the ammo starts to cook off, like I said before, most players will be very happy.

Of course maybe some charred or burnt out hulks to be used as flavor objects would be super sweet. .... I would personally like to see BF add a few more flavor objects with each module...

[MeatEtr]

I hope down the WW2 road we will eventually get hit decals, blackened hulls and thrown tracks. Even just a gun barel drop like CMx1..

Agree with getting damage decals, I think pretty much everybody would like it. But there already is gun barrel drop in CMSF. Maybe not for abandoned tanks, but I've seen the gun barrel pointing downward on at least some KOed tanks.

So I'm sure we will at least have this for CMBN.

[Battlefront.com]

Doh, I should have mentioned the decals thing myself! My guess is we'll implement the hit decals before we have destructible models. There's other benefits to a "decal" system, such as the potential for having customized rank graphics on soldiers, vehicle numbers, building damage decals, etc. I can't promise that all of these things will happen at once, but I can say that once the underlying code is written for decals the foundation will be there.

sfhand... thanks for the compliments. Trust me when I say that even WE are surprised what we can do with limited resources. The beta testers we have are one of the fundamental reasons we can do so much with so little. I really can't sing their praises loudly enough.

Steve

[Homo ferricus]

In general, one of the interesting things about the preview was seeing how others approach the game, it was fascinating.

Fascinating, huh? I sense that you don't approve of my Sherman-rush tactic...