CM: BfN steam group

[Cornfleek]

An almost xenophobe attitude towards Steam from Battlefront. From a business perspective I understand their position, but the fact that Steve is not aware that Steam can be used for non-steam games is disheartening. Not smart business-wise is fine by me, but this sounds like "just not caring" about the one thing that will save PC gaming.

Here's an interesting read about game discounts, and the importance of Steam when it comes to creating more revenue (and creating opportunities for indie games). http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/14/beyond-the-bucket-two-years-on/

Just for the record, I would repurchase all CM Battlefront games if they'd come to Steam for a decent price. Not even to play them, but to have them in my collection permanently (the woes of a scratch on my CMBB CD).

/steam fanboy off

* signs up for steam group!

[noxnoctum]

Ya I really don't understand it at all. Valve is the least "evil" of the major gaming companies probably... I would have said Blizzard before but they've aligned themselves with the Antichr-errr I mean Activision.

They release free stuff for their games all the time (TF2 and L4D2 atm) and provide a free platform that lets you organize games that they don't even sell.

People on here are just too cynical about anything beyond their limited "grog vision".

Not to mention the games you DO buy on steam you can download, install, uninstall, and reinstall forever. None of this one year stuff or retarded DRM stuff that other gaming companies are using. (thank you BFC for NOT using DRM) I too would re-buy all my CM games on steam if they were released on there so I could never worry about losing my backup CDs and DVDs.

I mean, just a few months ago they released a completely free high quality game, "Alien Swarm". Basically top down co-op team shooter (think Left 4 Dead but not first person and with hordes of aliens coming at you instead of zombies and crazy weapons and landscapes to fight on). Why? Because they want to encourage the mod community to experiment more with their engine.

[Rambler]

I asked the question regarding Steam awhile ago, albeit in the CMSF forums. Battlefront explained their position on it in there. I still think it'd be great to see it on Steam, but I respect their decision not to do it. Here's the thread: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=92956

[Moon]

provide a free platform that lets you organize games that they don't even sell.

Awesome! Is there an official link we can use to point people to Steam for their free matchmaking tools?

[Moon]

Here's an interesting read about game discounts,

Discount policies such as this is what has led the PC market to where it is now. It's a short sighted short term boost and a long term spiral down the drain. Instead of cheaper prices for more cloned crap what we need are better games that are worth their money.

[noxnoctum]

Cheaper? The standard has risen from $49.99 to $59.99.

[Moon]

I wonder why that may be and if the oh so excellent discount policies have anything to do with it?

[noxnoctum]

I think he must be talking about the summer sale they always have. 33% off on most stuff. Great deals.

And Valve isn't responsible for all the ****ty games released over the past few years you know. If you wanna blame someone for all the terrible clone craptastic games that have come out, blame the console industry.

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I wonder why that may be and if the oh so excellent discount policies have anything to do with it?

To be frank, you're the first developer I've seen that seems to have an issue with Steam - infact you seem to be going so far as to ignore the Elefant in the room (console gaming) in your rationale for dismissing it as a negative influence on PC gaming.

Count me among those that are disappointed by BFC's absence on Steam. This is already starting to sound like there is an echo in the room but I am another customer that would love the opportunity to buy your older titles on Steam if they were available at a reasonable price. Yes, buy them. Again. That is in part because of your fine work, but also because of how useful and simple I find it is to have my games catalogue on Steam.

I recognise that people shelling out $25-30 for your back catalogue may not be as appealing as 25 bucks a pop for an older game - but what if it's 5 people doing that instead of 1? What if it becomes 15 people when the price of the pack goes down? How many more people would hear about the newer games like Normandy if they were featured on Steam? With a demo and word of mouth (aided by the community functions but also the general popularity of the service), Normandy could potentially reach a much greater audience.

I don't mean to suggest you haven't considered this and I realise I obviously have no idea what a Steam publishing deal entails as far as cost on your end. It seems to me like there are merits to the Steam model, considering the significant industry and consumer support for it.

[noxnoctum]

Yes the publicity would be a huge factor seeing as how you can see what your friends are playing. Someone asks me "What's Combat Mission dude?" and bam, you got a sale.

[UsF]

I joined the group and I will add it as a non steam product, simply because I like the ingame chat option. Hopefully it will work without a problem.

[Moon]

You seem to assume that we have no idea what Steam is. We do. More than you think. We're getting a cut of a number of games being sold on Steam today.

To be frank, you're the first developer I've seen that seems to have an issue with Steam

That may be because there are not many developers left with an alternative to Steam these days. We do. It's right here. Most other publishers don't have this. For them, it's either love it or die.

Anyway, I don't understand what the problem is for you Steam lovers. You can already make a group for Battlefront games and play apparently. So go and do. Nothing is prohibiting you to do it. Steam is great and free! Use it!

Or is this about an excuse for getting our games cheaply?

I recognise that people shelling out $25-30 for your back catalogue may not be as appealing as 25 bucks a pop for an older game - but what if it's 5 people doing that instead of 1?

Your question doesn't make sense because it's not based in any kind of reality. What if it's 500 instead of 1 is as legimiate as what if it's 1 for 20 right now?

Unlike you, we have the luxury of knowing Steam sales of several of the games we're involved with. The ratio is not 5 to 1, not even close. Just because Steam is perhaps 10 or 100 times bigger than we are doesn't mean that our customer base would grow by that percentage. We're not making mainstream shooters.

Would we sell more if we sold our games for 10% of the price they're selling right now? Yup! Would it be wise to do this down the road? Nope.

I can understand why you Steam lovers want us to go to Steam. You're Steam prisoners in a golden cage. It reminds me of the days of Xbox etc. and people asking us all the time to make games for consoles. After spending a few hundred bucks on that, that's understandable. If I had all my games on Steam I would probably want more games on Steam, too.

Mind you, I am not ruling out that we will ever be on Steam. We may put some old games up there. We're not stupid. In order to reach mainstream, you have to go where the mainstream is. In the past this meant getting retail deals, these days it means perhaps being on Steam. There are some important differences however which make us think twice about it. In retail, when a game is in the budget bin, it is eventually sold out. In online storefronts, it can stay up there for ever.

And if you really only want the conveniences of Steam like unlimited downloads or matchmaking tools, well, we'll have something for Battlefront games eventually. And it will come without all the other baggage of Steam, promised.

Martin

[Moon]

Yes the publicity would be a huge factor seeing as how you can see what your friends are playing. Someone asks me "What's Combat Mission dude?" and bam, you got a sale.

Awesome! And since Steam doesn't mind if you make a non-Steam-game group, you can do all of this already now. That's great!

[noxnoctum]

Man you guys are cynical and sarcastic as hell.

The "steam prisoners" line had me rolling though :D

Because having a bunch of really easily damaged DVDs and CDs lying around is much better . And the more places you have to download your games digitally from the better!

I feel like I'm arguing with a NWO/911/Illuminati conspiracy theorist.

[WillLight]

Mate, not sure what you want Moon to say. Short of agreeing to being on Steam, is there anything he could say that would please you? He indicated that he doesn't think selling more stuff on steam would be profitable for them, are you going to challenge that? Based on what? your gut feeling? He indicated that they are striving to provide a better download service, what more do you expect him to say while not agreeing to the main premise that BFC should sell their games on steam?

This is kinda like the subscription service Apple is offering where publishers have to sell for the same price on and off the iThing. It's great for the consumers who have the iThing but is it that great for the publishers? Just think, has the standard of journalism increased since the internet became widespread? Has the standard of PC games gone up since every 18 month old game began to be on offer for 5$ on gamers gate?

[noxnoctum]

I just think his extremely negative view of Steam is a bit... weird and completely unjustified. I don't care if BFC ever sells on steam, that's not what I'm talking about. Yeah, it'd be nice and convenient, but I won't die if they don't .

[Gromit]

Here are a couple Steam-related responses from Steve back in the Fall that are germane to the discussion.

...Unlike the average Steam user, we have seen contracts. They aren't to our liking. Therefore we aren't interested in being carried by Steam.

The problem with a lot of the comments here is there is an assumption that going with Steam would result in a net positive effect. Broader exposure, more diverse customer base, etc. etc. Guys... we're very clever game publishers. We've been doing this for 11 years and have outlived more companies than I can count. Don't you think we would have thought of these rather obvious possible positives? Seriously! So I think it would be wise to assume that we have:

1. Thought of all angles, including ones not mentioned here.

2. Seen the contract and assessed how the angles and the contract might work in our favor.

3. Taken into consideration things we've observed/read about how Steam works.

4. Still concluded that Steam isn't likely to result in a net positive outcome for us.

We will not be on Steam unless the equation changes so that we perceive a good chance of a net positive outcome. Customer requests for being on Steam, or against Steam, have zero impact on the equation. Therefore, asking us to be on Steam or to stay off Steam won't change or preserve the status quo.

Steve

Back to the Steam thing...

Yes, some game companies have been "saved" by Steam. But note that these are game companies that were previously relying upon retail sales. Since retail sales have always been difficult to secure (worse now than ever) it's clearly beneficial for such companies to move away from retail. We did 11 years ago before anybody else did. And there's the difference... we already have the infrastructure and knowhow to get the sales we need on our own. We don't need to give a huge chunk of our revenue and lose control of our destiny just to survive. And that's what Steam would require of us.

As for negotiating with Steam... yeah right I suppose if we were ID or EA they might be interested in negotiating, but we aren't and they aren't.

Again, we have all the inside information and long experience with such things. Our conclusion is Steam isn't a good fit for us. At least until something significant changes. Therefore, we won't be going with them. This is not arrogance, this is simply being smart.

Steve

I find it very telling that there exists a mirror image company to Battlefront over in Germany, Out of the Park Productions. The group is just as small with Markus Heinsohn the lone programmer. They do business in the same way, direct internet sales with online support via forums.

What I find so telling about it is this- although the subject is completely different (Baseball) much of the discussion over on their board centers around the same core topics as over here. Mostly I see a lack of empathy and patience that I feel comes from our society's decades-long push for convenience and gratification combined with the anonymity the internet.

Can't we just take at face value what Battlefront (or OOTP) is telling us? What it so hard about that? :confused:

[Cornfleek]

Or is this about an excuse for getting our games cheaply?

Martin, since I was the one posting the link on the discount discussion, let me reply.

First of all I just payed 80 dollars for my pre-order copy of CMBN. I don't mind, good things don't come cheap. High prices for niche products are fine. I even purchased CMSF and modules while not being interested in modern day warfare, just to make sure CMBN would see the light of day quicker. Some modules I haven't even installed. Silly, yes. But please don't imply we are looking for cheaper games.

And games being on Steam does not mean they are cheaper. Some of the AAA games on there never ever go on sale, it's not compulsory. And sales only last for short periods, prices are readjusted on a daily basis. Even just putting some discounted back catalogue on there might generate revenue you would not have generated otherwise.

All in all, it's probably the cynicism in BF's replies (golden cage prisoners, looking for cheaper games, etc.) that's not helping. In the end Steam offers a much better service when it comes to publishing games than Battlefront does (unlimited downloads, automatic updates, multiplayer matchmaking, etc.). It feels that you are catering too much for the "grumpy old grog" crowd that worry about Steam causing spam and such silliness.

It is 2011 and I couldn't care less about having a physical copy in some silly steel box, let alone having a 200 page printed manual. There are more customers out there that you alienate from by having an old fashioned stance when it comes to PC gaming. All I ask is that you might consider entertaining a broader view of your customer base.

[~Viajero]

It is 2011 and I couldn't care less about having a physical copy in some silly steel box, let alone having a 200 page printed manual. There are more customers out there that you alienate from by having an old fashioned stance when it comes to PC gaming. All I ask is that you might consider entertaining a broader view of your customer base.

Although I fully live in 2011 and enjoy being a "steam prisoner" I am also of those who like those "bible"size paper manuals on good games.

I have to agree though that steam could eventually help in broadening the player base for the CM series thanks to all its networking and scale features. Cant back it up obviously and just a gut feeling so a bit worthless. But the fact Moon and co. are looking at Steam data and facts so closely probably hints in the same direction.

Having said that if I was BFC I would only go to Steam if Steam accepted my Terms & Conditions, and not the other way round. And that is not going to happen anytime soon, or is it?

[LJFHutch]

And if you really only want the conveniences of Steam like unlimited downloads or matchmaking tools, well, we'll have something for Battlefront games eventually. And it will come without all the other baggage of Steam, promised.

Do want! The thing I have with Steam is it's like attaching a ball and chain to your game, oh and the monopoly thing. I'd much rather buy direct from developers, better they than some greedy publisher get the money.

There's also a CMx2 group for all CMx2 games as well.

[Medex]

Because having a bunch of really easily damaged DVDs and CDs lying around is much better . And the more places you have to download your games digitally from the better!

umm.. i just bought CMSF digitally. No cd.

[noxnoctum]

umm.. i just bought CMSF digitally. No cd.

Miss the second part of the quote ?

[Medex]

Yeah.. i guess i'm too lazy to read your whole post.

Good luck with your steam thing.

[stikkypixie]

I just think his extremely negative view of Steam is a bit... weird and completely unjustified. I don't care if BFC ever sells on steam, that's not what I'm talking about. Yeah, it'd be nice and convenient, but I won't die if they don't .

That's the point, they already do sell games on Steam. And the offer they get from is not interesting enough for them to sell CM on Steam it seems. I personally use Steam as well, but for me it's just a convenience thing (not having to run to the store to buy stuff). I do not make use of its "matchmaking" system (which, correct me if I'm wrong, is pretty much a chat lobby). For me switching to Steam would not change anything, and the current BFC system is quite practical, but I would really appreciate though if the download cap was removed.

[Rocky Balboa]

I've bought a good bit off of steam and I like the service. You can get some really good deals if your willing to wait and watch but like most things I'm sure its not for everyone. When Martin says they've looked at it and it doesn't fit then I trust they know what there doing and it sounds like they might add some steam like features in the future. A battle finder service and removing the download limits would awesome.

As for the Metal Box edition of CMBN, its nice but the digital download works just as well for me. The main reason I bought the pre-order was to support BF and to make sure I can start downloading on day one.