Borg Spotting vs Borg ID'ing

[gunnersman]

Speaking of spotting; how about this guy from Elvis' DAR.

Is the fact he is sitting under trees and what looks like in the shade considered in the spotting calculation?

[panzermartin]

I think cover in shade would be realistic. But thats propably for CMx3 or CMx4 generation of wargames. Code will have to take into account real time lighting with changing sun position, % shaded surface of a tank etc. Keeping the tank close to trees is good enough for now and has almost the same effect, shaded or not.

[LongLeftFlank]

Speaking of spotting; how about this guy from Elvis' DAR.... (pic above)

Is the fact he is sitting under trees and what looks like in the shade considered in the spotting calculation?

Wot, behind the (25 ton) rabbit?

Actually, in reference to the topic, some kind modder could create an icon solution right this moment -- all "infantry" (people on foot) type icons, friend or foe, get a little "x" and all vehicle icons get a little "TV screen". It would complicate moving among your own units a bit, but the FOW enthusiasts would probably accept the tradeoff. Am I wrong?

[Mord]

LLF...I had that same idea wading through this thread....I was thinking one could just copy the infantry icon and use it for all infantry based units/teams and one of the vehicle Icons for all vehicle based units....problem solved.

Mord.

[DaveDash]

Originally posted by DaveDash

"What Steve says here is exactly right. CMSF is just missing the aesthetic middle part of the spotting process where units turn from completely unknown to "type" identified, to positively identified. In the CMSF engine they just remain as a "?" for longer, until your units have positively ID'd them."

Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote properly.

Last night playing CMSF... My Scout platoon moving toward a few buildings got a contact on a rooftop 200m away. 5 seconds later the contact was fully identified as a sniper from 180m. While not Instant ID it is pretty fast. You can talk optics all you want but it was a guy poking his head over the roof wall. I think you are confusing the length it takes to identify because if you lose sight it just goes back to a "?". Maybe you are playing RT & are on opposite side of the map so you don't notice that they have been fully identified, because they change back to "?". I play WEGO so I see what the contacts are in replay. I would like to see the question mark stay for a lot longer even when directly observed (from a distance). It should be something like "I saw a soldier on that rooftop but I don't know if it was 1 guy or part of a squad". no other info until you close within a 50m and are fully engaged.

In this example it is clear to me the sniper team opened fire, because you almost never spot infantry in buildings until you are right on top of them.

If you went back and examines the replay I'd almost bet you'd hear the "phhpht" noise that would identify the unit as a sniper by sound as he fired, regardless of icon type.

The system obviously isn't perfect. Based on the number of eyes has too much impact and vehicle optics have too little. IE BLUEFOR Tanks should be way better at spotting in CMSF in urban environments than they are, and BLUEFOR infantry way worse and more "confused" (longer ? time), but it's no where near as bad as people think. Optics obviously will play less of a part in CMBN so we may see spotting reduced overall.

[skelley]

I replayed scenario earlier tonight in hotseat...same results. What I didn't realize last night but witnessed from red side was that the sniper spotter opened up with his assault rifle while the marksman ran to position on roof. But it was positively IDed 2 seconds after the sniper fired his first shot. The sniper team was of Crack quality while the scout Platoon was vet.

Another thing I saw was...on the other side of the map a Red sniper was able to ID a Platoon HQ in a Stryker at over 400m. It makes sense that he could see a couple guys pokin their heads out the back hatches but to ID them as an HQ seems off to me. I honestly don't know, but do LTs in combat wear anything on their helmet that would give their rank away?

On a positive note....that Stryker was KOed and 6 of a 9 man squad in a house were killed, wounding the other three, by an AT Gun (57mm I think) The stryker was 250m away, the squad was 100m away.... It took another 3 minutes after the carnage before I got the contact and another minute after that before positively IDed.

I realize it's not perfect and don't demand perfect. I just prefer less info and more tension and higher blood pressure:)

[skelley]

LongLeftFlank and Mord.....that would work for me as a work around until a better solution can be found. Goes a long way toward adding more Fog of War.

[stoex]

Hold on, skelley - a 57mm AT gun in CMSF? I'm more than a little confused. What would that be exactly? An RPG? SPG-9? ATGM? I know of no AT guns in CMSF...

[Taki]

Originally posted by DaveDash

"What Steve says here is exactly right. CMSF is just missing the aesthetic middle part of the spotting process where units turn from completely unknown to "type" identified, to positively identified. In the CMSF engine they just remain as a "?" for longer, until your units have positively ID'd them."

Sorry, I can't figure out how to quote properly.

Last night playing CMSF... My Scout platoon moving toward a few buildings got a contact on a rooftop 200m away. 5 seconds later the contact was fully identified as a sniper from 180m. While not Instant ID it is pretty fast. You can talk optics all you want but it was a guy poking his head over the roof wall. I think you are confusing the length it takes to identify because if you lose sight it just goes back to a "?". Maybe you are playing RT & are on opposite side of the map so you don't notice that they have been fully identified, because they change back to "?". I play WEGO so I see what the contacts are in replay. I would like to see the question mark stay for a lot longer even when directly observed (from a distance). It should be something like "I saw a soldier on that rooftop but I don't know if it was 1 guy or part of a squad". no other info until you close within a 50m and are fully engaged.

Thats an absolutly valid Point! The Spotting is way to fast in CMSF and the C2 Info goes way to fast to every Units.

Yeah the PDA Hightec things but even then its waaaaaay to fast. Same Problem with CMBN. There is a Sniper laying not in best cover. Instantly 3 Tanks! Yes Tanks the one with WW2 Spotting Capabilitys see them all 3 Instantly. Every Yankee in Town knows it suddenly.

Dont want to say its biased. Same goes for the Germans aswell.

So the Biggest Problem for me isnt just the "InstantID Problem" but also the "C2 Lightning Speed Info passing"

[skelley]

Actually it is a 73mm Recoilless Gun.

[DaveDash]

Thats an absolutly valid Point! The Spotting is way to fast in CMSF and the C2 Info goes way to fast to every Units.

Yeah the PDA Hightec things but even then its waaaaaay to fast. Same Problem with CMBN. There is a Sniper laying not in best cover. Instantly 3 Tanks! Yes Tanks the one with WW2 Spotting Capabilitys see them all 3 Instantly. Every Yankee in Town knows it suddenly.

Dont want to say its biased. Same goes for the Germans aswell.

So the Biggest Problem for me isnt just the "InstantID Problem" but also the "C2 Lightning Speed Info passing"

Do you even play CMSF? Apart from vehicles most of my units are rarely ever in C2. What difficulty level do you play on? Because sometimes even with vehicles I've been waiting minutes for them to pass on C2. Ever had a MG unit sitting right next to a HQ unit and the MG can't see the contact for a good few turns? So really, you're way over-exaggerating the issue or playing a completely different game to me.

Also, CMSF uses modern military optics and communications systems. If anything, vehicles are under modelled. Take a look at the Baghdad 'Thunder Run' video on youtube to see how easily M1A1's can spot even a hidden RPG team, or read some books on the battle of Fallujah about how easily Tanks could spot snipers. Don't even get me started on how useless the optics are on those recon HUMVEEs in game, vs their real life counterparts.

Infantry though do spot things too easily, IMO. I believe this is all based on the number of eyes contribute to spotting to a high degree.

[Mord]

Hey fellahs...give me your opinions over in the CMSF main Forum about the mod I am making.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

I don't know if Taki has played CM:SF much, if at all. I do know, for sure, he hasn't played CM:BN. Therefore I think his "sky is falling" comments should be taken with a grain of chicken feed.

How many of you guys here play with Floating Icons turned off? ALT-i will do this. Try playing that for a while and let us know what you think about FoW with them off. I ask this because it struck us a few days ago that is where the FoW preservation starts to run into problems.

Steve

[Mord]

I try to do it but usually have to jump back and forth because I can't find my own guys! That and you can't unload infantry from a Stryker or what not, without them.

Mord.

[sawomi]

I tried it a little bit with some small WEGO scenarios.

* All units are tabbed in view 1 and get only choosen with '+' and '-'.

* All movment and target orders for single units is plotted from [tab]-view 1.

* Enemy icons are switched off, but can be switched on for units with high-tec optics like MBT etc.

* Zoom function according to magnification strengh of available optics.

* Only HQ's can use top down view and plot move orders after dubble click.

* Scrolling of map only allowed with FBCB2/PDA etc.

-> Highest HQ can use 'view 9', platoon HQ only lowest instant top-down view (5 or 6 - don't know right now).

Then I made option to roll some dice to give BLUE battalion HQ chance to use high level iso-view to simulate drone recon).

Is quite some fun against AI.

[stoex]

Steve,

I think a LOT could be done to improve the issue of IDing enemy units by making some relatively minor changes to the floating icons and what information they give the player. Reducing the information offered by the floating icons (to display that 'middle ground' for IDing, the weak area of the current system as you stated yourself) would go a long way to resolving some of what is being clamored for here. The actual GUI information available by clicking on the unit could stay the way it is. This would give players the option of sticking with the current system (by clicking on contacts to see exactly what they are) or staying more in the dark of FoW (by simply NOT clicking on the icons).

A further step would be to adapt the system to make the floating icons change their appearance depending on the level of IDing that the enemy unit has gone through. I understand that this is akin to changing the entire system, though, as such information could then just as well be shown in the GUI. But a quick overhaul of just the floating icons to reduce their 'precision' would already go a long way.

Thanks to Mord for taking a first step in this direction!

[Taki]

I played lots of CMSF. The wohle Campaign about 10 Mission and the Second Fan Made Campaign in Iron Mode.

Just run the Test. Take Tank Platoon and do the Spotting with 1 of them. 2 Seconds later the Whole Platoon knows where it is.

Its okay with these PDA things but even then and in the Chaos of a Fight the Track&Engage is to fast. Same goes with Infantry Units and APCs.

[stikkypixie]

I played lots of CMSF. The wohle Campaign about 10 Mission and the Second Fan Made Campaign in Iron Mode.

Just run the Test. Take Tank Platoon and do the Spotting with 1 of them. 2 Seconds later the Whole Platoon knows where it is.

Its okay with these PDA things but even then and in the Chaos of a Fight the Track&Engage is to fast. Same goes with Infantry Units and APCs.

Do the other tanks have a direct LOS to the target as well? Or was something blocking the target? Because I have never seen this myself.

[Edit] I just did a test myself, and no way it's 1 second, it's more in term of minutes.

[DaveDash]

I try to do it but usually have to jump back and forth because I can't find my own guys! That and you can't unload infantry from a Stryker or what not, without them.

Mord.

Im fairly certain you can have your icons on, and enemy icons off by going through the alt-i options.

Do the other tanks have a direct LOS to the target as well? Or was something blocking the target? Because I have never seen this myself.

[Edit] I just did a test myself, and no way it's 1 second, it's more in term of minutes.

Exactly. He is either over-exaggerating the issue or playing on basic training skill level.

[Lanzfeld]

I did a TON of C2 tests awhile back. I can say that, in Iron mode at least, it can take several minutes to have contacts passed around to everyone that is in C2. In fact, I think I found a few bugs/instances where info was NOT being passed when it should have been.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Im fairly certain you can have your icons on, and enemy icons off by going through the alt-i options.

No, alt-I cycles through:

- All icons on

- All icons off

- Only question mark icons

By the way, even with icons off, there are still the mini-icons (triangles) on the top bar.

With very accurate aim you can even select passenger units by using them.

Even when they are stacked, there is a difference whether you click left middle or right on the stack.

But I didn't find it very practical to use them that way.

[Battlefront.com]

Yes, I think we can see that Taki is over exaggerating or is playing with a lower level of FoW.

The floating icon being a major source of the problem, at lest for infantry units, has already been identified as the primary problem with the "inbetween" state of spotting. I guess I could throw out a bone and tell you that has already been addressed Not as perfectly as I would like, but it's a definite improvement. No details available at this time as specifics may change yet, but I'll post some in the near future.

Steve

[dan/california]

That is just so very, very cool! Thanks Steve.

[skelley]

Great news! Thanks

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Good to hear Steve. Thanks for looking into the issue.

Regards

KR