Would you pay for more CMSF features?

[noxnoctum]

I'd pay $100-150 in a heartbeat for CM:N (or CMx2:Ostfront) if it included:

1. TCP-IP WEGO with replay

2. A multiplayer lobby and ladder

3. A "storm room" command

4. A fix for the LOS issues when you're on a cliff

5. Movable waypoints ala CMx1 (so I don't have to cancel the order to adjust where I want them to go... just a pain in the ass)

6. Different timer settings available for WEGO

7. A way for you to order your troops to stay crouched/standing up.

8. Operations like CMx1. I'm not against having campaigns, I'm just saying I'd pay $100-150 for both (and the above features)

And I'm 22, unemployed, and my best job prospect right now is Walmart . So yes, it'd be worth it to me.

[Waaarg]

Waaarg (Dangit I wish I had my old name)- I think Steve dropped a big bone saying that CMSF 2 happens to involve China

I wonder if they will give consideration to Russia being Blue team on this.

Now that you mention it, I remember him posting that. I tried to look it up to post for ya MeatEr but couldn't find it.

[ChrisND]

Throwing more resources at CMSF beyond some bug fixes is a waste of time, IMO. Even if 100 of you were willing to pay big bucks for a few new features, it wouldn't recoup the time lost that could be spent working with new titles, which would make a heck of a lot more money. It doesn't matter how strongly a few people on a forum feel about it, it's simple efficiency. At some point, development on a game has to stop. CMSFs time is over for now.

As for:

I will go out on a limb and say that CM: Normandy and mods will still not satisfy the CM1 fans if it continues to feature the relatively small tactical scope of CM2.

I'm assuming you are talking of battalion level, even multi-battalion level monster scenarios (If not, my read for misreading). That's just too bad for them, because the game was never ever designed to satisfy them.

[Erwin]

Yes, you are correct Norm and yes, you are correct... (It's nice to have agreement in these forums.)

The fact that one can do regimental+ scenarios in CM1 is a major reason that it still lives on, and why many of us still love it (just a little bit) more than CM2.

And if (perish the thought) Steve and the entire cast of BFC should vanish off the planet and the IP was up for grabs, we would reinvest in getting the CM1 Campaigns concept completed, hehe...

[noxnoctum]

Aye^^^^^^^^

[Michael Emrys]

...the thought of getting through that ten year list in 18 months is just overwhelming.

It would also overwhelm the checking accounts/credit card balances of most of us as well.

Michael

[vincere]

Whoa, did I miss something somewhere, where did he mention this?

'Fighting in tribal areas of Pakistan will look nearly identical to Afghanistan, therefore if everything is tailored to Afghanistan now then we'll theoretically be all set. But if we have to fight an amphibious and airborne assault on Taiwan to take it back from the Chinese... well, let's just assume that would be a tad different

Which, BTW, is an interesting way to think of CM:SF2...'

here: www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=93827&page=7

[dan/california]

Taking Taiwan BACK from the Chinese would give new meaning to destroying the village in order to save it. If the Chinese control a working port facility for even a day or so they would have a massive force on the island assuming their planning was even marginally competent. I don't think there is much about the sea/littoral conditions around Taiwan that lends itself to an amphibious assault either. There is an over supply of bad water and big cliffs. Otherwise the Chinese would have long since have gone for it themselves. There is a great game in there somewhere , but it is an updated version of "Harpoon".

Besides the lesson of Hawaii is quite relevant. You can't steal it, but it is most certainly fore sale,

[Erwin]

I think Joe Miranda/Decision Games has designed (cardboard) Taiwan Invasion games, and is rather knowledgeable about all that if anyone is really interested.

[Michael Emrys]

I don't think there is much about the sea/littoral conditions around Taiwan that lends itself to an amphibious assault either. There is an over supply of bad water and big cliffs.

Nimitz and the Navy wanted to take Formosa (as Taiwan was called at the time) instead of the Philippines. Perhaps it's just as well that MacArthur convinced them otherwise.

Michael

[Battlefront.com]

There is something called "opportunity cost" which anybody in any sort of business discipline should be aware of. At least the successful ones are The concept is that an hour of time for a key employee must be maximized for the best return. "Best" is defined differently depending on circumstances, but overall "best" means leveraging the most effect for the time invested.

Charles could spend 2 months adding features that 1,000 people would pay $100 for or he could spend 2 months adding features that 10,000 people would pay $50 for. Or putting those 2 months towards something that takes 3 months in total and 30,000 would pay $60 for. Which means if Charles has 2 months to spend on anything he will most likely not be spending it on the first example, even if the 500 of them said they would pay $200.

And this isn't just about money either, though of course that plays into it to some extent. For us, we would rather make 10,000 people happy than have 1,000 happy and 9,000 disappointed.

Obviously this is all relative to wargaming because we could instead make games that appeal to much larger audiences and in theory net us more money than any of you guys could possibly pony up. Therefore, we are willing to compromise on potential sales to some extent because either extreme (aiming for core hardcore fans or aiming for broader audiences) are both likely to result in us going out of business.

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

To recap our strategy... we have everything very neatly divided up into Tracks, Families, and Release (which in turn are subdivided into Base Game and Module). For Tracks we have:

WW2 Western Front

WW2 Eastern Front

Modern

Wildcard (one-off games like CM:Afghanistan that don't fit into the above three)

Within Western Front we have two Families:

Normandy

Bulge

Families are self contained and not cross compatible. Once a Family is complete we will stop actively developing for it. This does NOT mean we stop supporting it. Likewise, it doesn't mean that no new features or bug fixes will get introduced along the way or after the last Module is released. The v1.31 patch (which is nearly ready) will show that to be true.

What we will NOT do, however, is put major new features from future Families into older Families. To do this would be too much from a development standpoint.

It took us nearly 4 years to develop CM:SF with no active development support for CMx1. Just imagine how long it would have taken if we keep hacking stuff into the old code base? Therefore, for the sake of keeping things moving along and covering a wider array of combat we MUST stop actively improving a Family at some point. It's simply impractical to do anything other than that.

The measure of "value" in a game should be how many hours of enjoyment are yielded per Dollar invested. Using the long held movie analogy, the current going rate for one hour of entertainment is about $6-$10 (depending on what overpriced garbage you buy at the concession stand ). An investment of $100 in Combat Mission, therefore, hits a comparable price point at somewhere around 60 to 100 hours of gameplay. Me thinks you guys have gone a little beyond that

Now, as for our expectations on what you guys will or will not purchase. Our model is not based on an assumption, or expectation, that everybody will purchase everything we release. Quite the contrary, we assume that people will be quite selective. We know, for example, that a huge chunk of our CMx1 fanbase won't touch CM:SF if it were given to them free because they have no interest in modern warfare. Yet we still made CM:SF and will make CM:SF 2 and more. Likewise, we don't expect more than a significant chunk of the original CM: Normandy customers to purchase the following Modules. People not interested in Commonwealth Forces will likely skip the 1st Module but might buy the 2nd Module because they have an interest in Arnhem. Etc.

Which is why when a customer, or potential customer, says "I won't buy that because I'm not interested in it" I say that's perfectly fine with us. We are used to people not wanting to buy our stuff. Why? One hour's worth of Medal of Honor 2 sales last year was probably larger than any one of our games has ever sold in the 11 years we have existed. And we're fine with that.

Steve

[TheVulture]

The measure of "value" in a game should be how many hours of enjoyment are yielded per Dollar invested. Using the long held movie analogy, the current going rate for one hour of entertainment is about $6-$10 (depending on what overpriced garbage you buy at the concession stand ). An investment of $100 in Combat Mission, therefore, hits a comparable price point at somewhere around 60 to 100 hours of gameplay. Me thinks you guys have gone a little beyond that

<watches another of his vehicles exploding mysteriously>

... ah, but if I spend 10 hours playing the game, how many of those hours do I actually enjoy

<tearfully goes back to surveying what might have wiped out his platoon>

[Waaarg]

I read that a few times and didn't see any new info....doh!

I'm hoping one day CM will venture to the Pacific either circa WW2, Some where on the Korean Peninsula Circa 1950's, or Korea 20XX. I'll vote for Korea every time this comes up and I see it.

Apparently Koreans don't worry about a war with N. Korea, because there is no where to go, I learned that while my wifes cousin was over here. He got a funny look on his face when I told him some Americans call it the Forgotten War (I hate that too).

[c3k]

To recap our strategy... we have everything very neatly divided up into Tracks, Families, and Release (which in turn are subdivided into Base Game and Module). For Tracks we have:

WW2 Western Front

WW2 Eastern Front

Modern

Wildcard (one-off games like CM:Afghanistan that don't fit into the above three)

...

Steve

Which brings to mind the NEXT title, to whit, "The Elbe: When Tracks Collide: East Meets West: Patton's Fury vs. Stalin's Steel!"

Oh, you mentioned something about Charles' work schedule as if 2 months here or 2 months there or a different 2 months yonder mattered. The solution is simple: never let him stop working. Never. Ever.

[silverstars]

Within Western Front we have two Families:

Normandy

Bulge

Families are self contained and not cross compatible.

So this means that when both of these families are done, the are completely separate? As in if I want to play with a Pershing I must load the bulge game, and while there I can't use any of the weird french tanks in any scenarios? Just like CMSF and CM:Afghanistan?

[scottie]

There is something called "opportunity cost" which anybody in any sort of business discipline should be aware of. At least the successful ones are The concept is that an hour of time for a key employee must be maximized for the best return. "Best" is defined differently depending on circumstances, but overall "best" means leveraging the most effect for the time invested.

Charles could spend 2 months adding features that 1,000 people would pay $100 for or he could spend 2 months adding features that 10,000 people would pay $50 for. Or putting those 2 months towards something that takes 3 months in total and 30,000 would pay $60 for. Which means if Charles has 2 months to spend on anything he will most likely not be spending it on the first example, even if the 500 of them said they would pay $200.

And this isn't just about money either, though of course that plays into it to some extent. For us, we would rather make 10,000 people happy than have 1,000 happy and 9,000 disappointed.

Obviously this is all relative to wargaming because we could instead make games that appeal to much larger audiences and in theory net us more money than any of you guys could possibly pony up. Therefore, we are willing to compromise on potential sales to some extent because either extreme (aiming for core hardcore fans or aiming for broader audiences) are both likely to result in us going out of business.

Steve

Steve , i have to say i have total respect for BF , your abilities, understanding of the market and business strategy. Its so fresh to get an insight into how games developers operate. I never have any fears about purchasing BF products as we know that the BF ethic will cascade throughout. Seriously good work chaps.

[Waaarg]

Steve , i have to say i have total respect for BF , your abilities, understanding of the market and business strategy. Its so fresh to get an insight into how games developers operate. I never have any fears about purchasing BF products as we know that the BF ethic will cascade throughout. Seriously good work chaps.

EA Execs are pretty good business men and have marketing ninjas. Just saying =)

[Wodin]

No I wouldn't....unless it was a new red army....

Let them get on with Norman and then Osty

[MeatEtr]

EA Execs are pretty good business men and have marketing ninjas. Just saying =)

Are you seriously comparing probably one of, if not the biggest developer/publisher in the entire videogames market to BF? :eek:

[Waaarg]

Are you seriously comparing probably one of, if not the biggest developer/publisher in the entire videogames market to BF?

Er no as the universal sign of =) would indicate. EA has the exact opposite reputation with its customers as BF does.

[Erwin]

Steve and all the BF staff: Why do you waste valuable time in these forums with all of us blovating hot air cos we haven't got the talent or abilities to do what you guys are doing?

Get back to work and don't worry about us. We have no place else to go.

Hope you all get to have a great Thanksgiving and even dare I say a little time off to decompress! (And no visiting these forums!)

[LJFHutch]

Definitely.

Though I'm not sure how probable it is ... probably not very.

[Sequoia]

Wildcard (one-off games like CM:Afghanistan that don't fit into the above three)

So any other wildcards come up in your hand lately?

[pazuzusmiles]

:eek:Im with meatetr there, about how long could we expect EAstern Front module?!?

I would pay up to 15 dollars for CMSF add ons plus I am even willing to pay extra retail for modules that are released with hard copy manuals, maps, ect