Sorry, more CM:Normandy questions...

[mjkerner]

Like others, I can't wait for "ASL Live Action"' er,...CM:Normandy.

And I know since 9/11, security is tight and BF is under heavy NSA scrutiny about releasing info to the eagerly-awaiting-to-put-money-in-BF's-pocket crowd, but maybe a few more bones???? I've read through all the current Normandy bones threads, but please forgive me if any of these were answered before.

1) Will CM:N have crashed Waco/Hamilcar/Horsa gliders as flavor objects to place on maps? It would be a great disservice to leave these out, IMHO. And how hard can it be? (We could used downed choppers for CMSF and CMA as well, hint hint.)

2) I read elsewhere in an interview with BF (Steve?) that we won't be going to the Pacific. WTF?!?! No Burma, no Guadalcanal, no Central Pacific Drive? You're kidding, right? (My Father was a combat vet at Kwajelein/Saipan/Okinawa...Pacific vets snubbed once again, I guess. (It's not the first WWII system to ignore the PTO.)

3) Considering the above, tell me we're at least going to the MTO...North Africa, Crete, Sicily/Italy, eventually.

4) And Early War in the West ...Poland/France, etc?

Thanks!

[MikeyD]

1) Flavor object much bigger than one action spot causes problems. And those gliders are bigger than you think they are. The Hamicar glider had a wingspan of 110 feet! From a game standpoint since they don't have any actual combat capabilities you can simply say they're one field over off-map.

2 thru 4) I recently read a list of BFC's immediate projects. We're likely to be old & grey or swallowed up by rising sea levels before BFC sees a significant opening in their schedule. There's no telling what interested 3rd party game companies might do. Snowballs Afghanistan title came as a big surprise to me.

[mjkerner]

2 thru 4) I recently read a list of BFC's immediate projects. We're likely to be old & grey or swallowed up by rising sea levels before BFC sees a significant opening in their schedule. There's no telling what interested 3rd party game companies might do. Snowballs Afghanistan title came as a big surprise to me.

That's true...One can hope!

But as for the gliders...couldn't they be "built" like a building in some manner? Houses aren't just one action spot, are they? And really, I have to admit that I don't care if they didn't have any affect on game play. I'd be happy having them in just for looks!

[ChrisND]

But as for the gliders...couldn't they be "built" like a building in some manner? Houses aren't just one action spot, are they? And really, I have to admit that I don't care if they didn't have any affect on game play. I'd be happy having them in just for looks!

Like anything, they could be implemented, but the amount of work involved does not justify them, when there are other, more important, things that still need to be done.

It's almost never a matter of whether it is feasible to do it or not, but whether the benefit is worth the cost.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct, the amount of coding and art time to have gliders in the fields is just not worth it. Sure, zero argument that it would be cool to have them in theory, we just have a problem with the reality part

Steve

[Wodin]

1)

2 thru 4) I recently read a list of BFC's immediate projects. We're likely to be old & grey or swallowed up by rising sea levels before BFC sees a significant opening in their schedule. There's no telling what interested 3rd party game companies might do. Snowballs Afghanistan title came as a big surprise to me.

Thats what I worry about with regards to the OstFront titles

[Michael Emrys]

Thats what I worry about with regards to the OstFront titles

I wouldn't worry about that too much. The Russo-German War is such a perennial favorite among wargamers that BFC would be mad to ignore that market. In fact, it's already on the list of projects.

Michael

[JonS]

1) Will CM:N have crashed Waco/Hamilcar/Horsa gliders as flavor objects to place on maps?

This is top of mind for you? There are 1.4 million fields in Normandy, but all you really care about is being able to model the 12 that had gliders land in them?

[LongLeftFlank]

You could conceivably build them as multiple flavour objects -- one for the nose/body, one for the tail and one for each wing section. That way gliders in various states of disintegration could also be placed on the map.

Which reminds me; much as the editor now allows you to place vehicles in "destroyed" or "burning" status, in CMN could we gain the ability to have selected infantry units start the game with 50% and 75% casualties (i.e. all the guys are there, but some are already dead and wounded).

[mjkerner]

What's with the attitude? It may be that only 12 fields in Normandy had gliders, but they will be noticably absent when we get to Oosterbeeck or, heaven forbid, Crete. Or if you want to hit Pegasus Bridge.

Anyway, all the more important issues and my other particular questions have been discussed in the various bone threads. So I asked. BFD.

By the way, dead cows would be a nice flavor object too.

[mjkerner]

Thanks Steve and Normal Dude. I seem to recall a similar discussion/explanation regarding choppers in CMSF a few years ago. I was thinking along the lines of LongLeftFlank, in having a crumpled one in several pieces. But I assume you'd have to 3D model it--so no simple skin job over an existing object for an astute skinner

[JonS]

What's with the attitude? It may be that only 12 fields in Normandy had gliders, but they will be noticably absent when we get to Oosterbeeck

So, wait - do we "need" them for Normandy, or not?

Also, Oosterbeck? I'm pretty sure there weren't any landings within the Oosterbeck perimeter

or, heaven forbid, Crete.

Heh. Crete. I wouldn't hold your breath

Or if you want to hit Pegasus Bridge.

Yes, because BFC should drop everything in order to model a 10-minute non-battle between 90 guys on one side, and about 20 on the other

[LJFHutch]

Which reminds me; much as the editor now allows you to place vehicles in "destroyed" or "burning" status, in CMN could we gain the ability to have selected infantry units start the game with 50% and 75% casualties (i.e. all the guys are there, but some are already dead and wounded).

In CM Afghanistan you can set the force manpower, 10-50% (you can start with only half power units for example).

[MikeyD]

I can hardly think of a feature asked for on the outer board that hasn't already been lobbied for and debated and argued over behind the scenes. Please don't think just because someone's 'pet issue' hasn't been addressed to their satisfaction that it was dismissed out of hand. There may very well have been Beta tester blood spilt over that issue more than a year ago! :eek:

[mjkerner]

So are you always nasty, JonS, or are you just off your meds? I asked about a friggin' flavor object, to which Steve and NormalDude kindly replied. It is, afterall, a game about Normandy which, IIRC, involved gliders, a possible object--not. And yes, by all means, I want them to stop developing everything else and do gliders. Only gliders. And cows, we need cows. Oh, and yes, I always assumed that they landed gliders and A/B directly into the center of Oosterbeeck.

And you can stop with the disingenuos smiley faces, you twit. Your priggish, smarmy jerk-i-tude are too strong to be glossed over by a patina of oily faux charm.

And to the moderator, I assume I'll be banned for responding to this what, pre-pubescent 13 year old? Under-socialized, passive-aggressive Eddie Haskell wannabe? No sweat, it's probably best since I can't suffer immature idjiuts like him for too long, as you can tell.

I'll still be buying CM Normandy and all the rest when it comes out. I really enjoy CMSF and its modules and CMA too, and all the mods the talented fans come up with. Thanks for all that.

See ya'll!

[MeatEtr]

[JonS]

lol - how about a hug. Would that make it better?

Sorry bro, I didn't realise that you'd had a humour bypass. Perhaps you could put that in your sig so no one gets confused. I found your list amusing, so I chose to tease you about it. My bad. You decided to get in a snit. Your bad.

Take care.

[WillyPete2171]

Like others, I can't wait for "ASL Live Action"' er,...CM:Normandy.

And I know since 9/11, security is tight and BF is under heavy NSA scrutiny about releasing info to the eagerly-awaiting-to-put-money-in-BF's-pocket crowd, but maybe a few more bones???? I've read through all the current Normandy bones threads, but please forgive me if any of these were answered before.

1) Will CM:N have crashed Waco/Hamilcar/Horsa gliders as flavor objects to place on maps? It would be a great disservice to leave these out, IMHO. And how hard can it be? (We could used downed choppers for CMSF and CMA as well, hint hint.)

2) I read elsewhere in an interview with BF (Steve?) that we won't be going to the Pacific. WTF?!?! No Burma, no Guadalcanal, no Central Pacific Drive? You're kidding, right? (My Father was a combat vet at Kwajelein/Saipan/Okinawa...Pacific vets snubbed once again, I guess. (It's not the first WWII system to ignore the PTO.)

3) Considering the above, tell me we're at least going to the MTO...North Africa, Crete, Sicily/Italy, eventually.

4) And Early War in the West ...Poland/France, etc?

Thanks!

Hey MJ, I'd like to see WW2 US Marine battles as well. At the very least we can hope for modders to take care fo that once Normandy is out. The pacific campaign provides a different kind of war and combat and should not be left out.

By the way, I'm a former Marine myself. I was stationed at Camp Hansen, Okinawa for 3 year, and had been to both Saipan and Kwajalein "the rock" a few times. Although when I was there back in the early 90's the only action I got was a few bar fights and the company of pretty Oki girls! One thing that I'll never forget of Kwajelein though is its not really an island, just a small strip of coral reef with one tiny aristrip. I could never imagine to horror the Marines of the "Old Breed" had to go through during the island hopping campaign. God bless your Father. Semper Fi!

[Alchenar]

This is top of mind for you? There are 1.4 million fields in Normandy, but all you really care about is being able to model the 12 that had gliders land in them?

There are also a lot of beaches in Normandy but I only care about modelling a few of them.

[Lanzfeld]

There are also a lot of beaches in Normandy but I only care about modelling a few of them.

Oh! Snap!

P.S. Mg42 bone pleeeeeze.

[YankeeDog]

There are also a lot of beaches in Normandy but I only care about modelling a few of them.

... And I suspect you're going to find yourself frustrated there, as well. Since CMBO Demo days, BFC has maintained the position that it has little interest in attempting to model the combat that took place on the actual beaches of Normandy.

As I understand it, their reasoning for this is that most landing zones saw only very light tactical action, and on the only landing zone that really did see protracted, intense combat (i.e., Omaha), there wasn't really organized company or even platoon-level action. The eventual success of American forces overcoming the defenses at Omaha had little do with decisions made by Company or Battalion-level commanders, and much more to do with improvised squad and even individual soldier level initiative. Similarly, on the German side, individual defensive emplacements fought alone, with little to no maneuver or coordination -- most bunkers, pillboxes, etc. simply kept shooting until they were knocked out or ran out of ammo. It's difficult to see how CM, as a company-level tactical simulator, could depict this kind of situation action in a way that would be both interesting and realistic.

At any rate, I may be proven wrong, my guess is that you'll find CM:N lacking many significant elements necessary to truly depict beach terrain and tactical scenarios. Of course, this won't stop scenario designers and modders from improvising; CMBO had numerous Omaha beach scenarios created for it. None of them were very realistic, but some of them were fun...

[Lanzfeld]

I think he KNOWS that CM:N will not model beaches. I think his POINT was that it is okay to wish for certain things even though they are a nich or minority as they can enrichen the whole game.

[TheVulture]

I think he KNOWS that CM:N will not model beaches. I think his POINT was that it is okay to wish for certain things even though they are a nich or minority as they can enrichen the whole game.

Well, that and the fact that out of all the beaches in Normandy, relatively few of them were involved in battles in WWII. And so only a few would turn up in a Normany game even if it did feature beach battles.

Maybe only a few fields out of over a million in Normany had gliders in them, but the proportion of fields likely to show up in a CM scenario with gliders in them probably much higher.

[MikeyD]

There's nothing in CM:Normandy to stop anyone from doing a beach scenario, just as there's nothing to stop anyone from doing a beach scenario in CMSF... except maybe for the lack of water. The Marine scenario "to the Shores of Tripoli" started at the beach. The ocean's simply just-off-map. Of course for Normandy you'll be able to add the ocean too.

Landing craft are like gliders. By the time the scenario's started their work has already been done, troops are on the ground. There's little difference between several weeks of coding to get an LCT to swim and drop its ramp (and making the model, and painting the texture) and having infantry appear at the water's edge as reinforcements. Except one is prettier.

[futon river crossing]

Whilst I don't passionately want gliders in the game (just as well eh?) - I would have thought that the game engine could be improved to allow "super flavor objects" or some such - that could allow for the "easy" building of things like gliders, trains etc.