Exhaustion Weirdness in "Hammertime"

[DaveDash]

So I fired up George MC's 'Hammertime' (V5) scenario to see how it played in V1.21, and I felt like getting my ass kicked.

What I noticed is that most of my squads (but not all) suddenly became 'Exhausted' in the middle of the scenario. I loaded them up with 1000 5.56 and 2xJavelin T-Heat so they did have a heavier than normal load, but this loadout is normal for me in most scenarios.

They remained Exhausted permanently and it became rather frustrating having them walk around the map like it was a leasurely afternoon stroll in the park. There is a lot of marshland in this scenario, did they contract malaria or something?

Has anyone else noticed this kind of behavior? Is there something in the engine that I don't know about to cause this, or is it a potential bug? My understanding is that they should have at least gotten over 'Exhaustion' after a while so there is definitely something dodgy with this.

I am at work but I can post a save game later.

[Dietrich]

The first time I played Paper Tiger's "USMC Second Storm", I sent a squad of Devil Dogs (who were not carrying a greater-than-normal load) at "quick" over broken terrain (but I don't remember what the actual terrain type was) alongside the northern bridge. The pixeltruppen went from "ready" to "exhausted" in about five seconds, and they remained so for about 15 minutes.

Since v1.21 came out, I've learned to be much more careful about which movement orders I give my pixeltruppen depending on the terrain. It's a bummer to send pixeltruppen hustling toward the objective only to find that they're exhausted halfway before they get there. Also, in my experience (as a real-time player) it's easy to issue a long-distance "quick" move order to a squad, turn my attention elsewhere, check up on them about 10 minutes later, and find them crawling along the ground because they're "exhausted", having become so about 5 minutes ago, but still doggedly striving to comply with the order they were given.

However, I haven't played "Hammertime" post v1.21, so I'll be checking it out later.

[DaveDash]

The first time I played Paper Tiger's "USMC Second Storm", I sent a squad of Devil Dogs (who were not carrying a greater-than-normal load) at "quick" over broken terrain (but I don't remember what the actual terrain type was) alongside the northern bridge. The pixeltruppen went from "ready" to "exhausted" in about five seconds, and they remained so for about 15 minutes.

Since v1.21 came out, I've learned to be much more careful about which movement orders I give my pixeltruppen depending on the terrain. It's a bummer to send pixeltruppen hustling toward the objective only to find that they're exhausted halfway before they get there. Also, in my experience (as a real-time player) it's easy to issue a long-distance "quick" move order to a squad, turn my attention elsewhere, check up on them about 10 minutes later, and find them crawling along the ground because they're "exhausted", having become so about 5 minutes ago, but still doggedly striving to comply with the order they were given.

However, I haven't played "Hammertime" post v1.21, so I'll be checking it out later.

My guys went from normal to exhausted just standing around doing nothing, and then remained that way until the end of the scenario. Some guys came out of it - I think it may have been after I split off AT teams but I will have to go back and double check. It certainly wasn't a gradual change though, it was triggered by something (like splitting squads) although maybe I just didn't wait long enough before moving them around.

I moved one platoon up the left through trenches and they became exhausted when quick moving around near the marshland. The other group moved up the far right of the map and became exhausted just standing around in the trees on grass. One group became exhausted hunting up the treeline towards the farm on the right, whereas 3 other squads went the same route and didn't. This group remained exhausted until the end of the scenario despite sitting around for a long time.

[hoolaman]

The last patch made scenarios with HOT conditions much more likely to result in exhaustion, however I'm not sure about how quickly that exhaustion wears off and there might be a problem there.

I think there is another thread about hammertime where GeorgeMc posted that the scenario may have been broken by the changes to exhaustion because the conditions are hot or very hot or something.

[ChrisND]

Do you happen to have a save file showing this?

[MikeyD]

The only time I get "exhausted a long time" problems is when the men do a slow crawl farther than they ought. Running to exhaustion usually recovers in a couple turns, crawling to exhaustion can wreck their whole day. It can get annoying when they get suppressed by fire, automatically crawl to cover then sit trying to catch their breath for another 10 minutes.

[DaveDash]

I do have a save game, so I'll post it when I get home (3:15pm here).

However, I suspect that maybe the guys fitness level could be set to low? I've noticed that their leadership value is reasonably low in this scenario also, so it might not be far off that these are poor quality troops. I'll have to check the scenario. That combined with the hot conditions could explain it.

However the circumstances 'seemed' suspicious. I mean they got exhausted at about the 1 hour mark and some remained that way until 30 minutes left. Could just be a combination of game mechanics (poor fitness, high load, hot weather) rather than a bug.

I've been playing CMSF hardout lately (gone through Marines again, finished off British campaign) and even in the mission in the Brit campaign where you need to assault those god-damned mountians I didn't see this level of exhaustion.

On a side note on differences betwen patches - when I played 'Milk Run' in 1.10 I won with ~15 casualties (8 KIA 7 WIA or there abouts). 1.21 I suffered 30 KIA 30 WIA approximately lol, 80% from the bloody AI artillery.

[George MC]

Hi Dave

Odd beaviour you've found there. I just Hammertime a few weeks past and never noticed this odd behaviour. I've just gone back in and checked the troop quality and it's pretty mixed (to represent a unit that has been in combat for a while and had some replacements, seen a lot and done a lot) but the fitness level is at fit. Weather is hot and dry so I would expect the guys to become exhausted if you push em hard on the ground but from what you describe that's not the case. In fact just standing about see's the poor wee things become all tired and emotional. Be keen to see the save file. I don't think you'll be able to upload it here due to the size of the file. Could you email me it please? It's georgemc at blowtorchscenarios dot com Many thanks

[DaveDash]

Hi Dave

Odd beaviour you've found there. I just Hammertime a few weeks past and never noticed this odd behaviour. I've just gone back in and checked the troop quality and it's pretty mixed (to represent a unit that has been in combat for a while and had some replacements, seen a lot and done a lot) but the fitness level is at fit. Weather is hot and dry so I would expect the guys to become exhausted if you push em hard on the ground but from what you describe that's not the case. In fact just standing about see's the poor wee things become all tired and emotional. Be keen to see the save file. I don't think you'll be able to upload it here due to the size of the file. Could you email me it please? It's georgemc at blowtorchscenarios dot com Many thanks

No worries mate.

I just imagined my guys had the sh*ts from the high tempo ops around marshlands so were in no condition to fight. Added to the difficulty of an already evil evil mission.

[bodkin]

I'm playing the 'Road to Amarah' mission in the 'Road to Dinas' campaign and found some troops becoming chronically exhausted after a 50m quick movement order. Paper Tiger made the campaign before 1.21 and then released a post 1.21 version but not sure if he addressed the fatigue issue or wether it's intended to be like that.

Some scenarios are definately broken or made alot harder than the designer intended by the new fatigue factor in hot conditions including 'It ain't half hot mum' which is nigh impossible now.

[Sivodsi]

In this thread they not only walked through the wall, but they also went straight to exhausted - and they have remained exhausted for the game thus far (it aint over yet).

[MeatEtr]

Speak of the devil, this just happened to one of my squads. The temp is cool, all troops are weakened, but the squad barely moved at the start and they went right to exhaustion. The rest of that platoon and another toon was fine. I continued anyway to see how long it takes for them to recover, so far it's been 37 mins and counting.

I've heard of this bug before, IIRC this is only the second time I've seen it myself.

[Sgt Joch]

Davedash, Sivodsi, Meatr,

could you post a screenshot of the UI of the units which are exhausted?

maybe we can find a pattern of what is causing this. It could be an issue with certain pre-1.21 scenarios, the fitness level of the unit or maybe an odd combination of factors. I personally have never seen this problem.

[Sivodsi]

I can send you the save file, would that be better?

Let me know where to.

[Sgt Joch]

I can send you the save file, would that be better?

Let me know where to.

you can email it. I will send you a pm.

[MarkEzra]

you can email it. I will send you a pm.

It has already been reported

[MeatEtr]

This is from an older scenario, it's birdstrikes "The Farm".

Ok I think I figured it out, brb. It's easy to reproduce.

[MeatEtr]

Ok here's the before:

And After:

The key is to move them to the corner, where the two walls meet. If they cross anywhere else they'll be fine. They went from ready-> tired-> fatigued-> exhausted in less than two seconds. This squad is now perma-exhausted for the rest of the battle.

Now having said that, I would like to officially apply to the beta tester team. Perhaps reserve a slot for the East Front family.

[DaveDash]

Sorry guys, my internet was buggered during the week so I couldn't email a save game.

I went back and did some tests and I noticed two distinct different symptoms for causing exhaustion:

The first is most certainly a bug, as I experienced what MeatEtr experienced (but rarely).

The second symtom however is a combination of either having your guys in mud (walking, running, whatever) will cause them to get exhausted very fast, and stay that way for about 10 minutes. You cannot move them otherwise they will never recover. Also, on hot missions the 'Hunt' command for more than 100m will tire your guys out extremely fast. Finally also on hot and above missions carrying a heavy load (Javelins) combined with 'hunt' or 'assault' will also make your guys exhausted very fast.

[MikeyD]

There's been little discussion that I can recall what the -1 Weakened condition is meant to imply in the game. The manual dooesn't help. My assumptioned is 'weakened' implies an overweight office worker who gets out of breath climbing the stairs. You don't want to put 40 pound field packs on guys like that and run them across an open field. -2 'Unfit' implies, to me, someone with something actually wrong with him, convalescing from an old injury perhaps or a twisted ankle or shell shock.

I just now ran a very brief little test. A fit, a weakend and an unfit squad each hops a stone wall and 'runs' into the teeth of enemy fire. To my surprise even the 'unfit' unit didn't immediately get tired, let alone exhausted. Hmmm...

[bodkin]

There's been little discussion that I can recall what the -1 Weakened condition is meant to imply in the game. The manual dooesn't help. My assumptioned is 'weakened' implies an overweight office worker who gets out of breath climbing the stairs. You don't want to put 40 pound field packs on guys like that and run them across an open field. -2 'Unfit' implies, to me, someone with something actually wrong with him, convalescing from an old injury perhaps or a twisted ankle or shell shock.

I just now ran a very brief little test. A fit, a weakend and an unfit squad each hops a stone wall and 'runs' into the teeth of enemy fire. To my surprise even the 'unfit' unit didn't immediately get tired, let alone exhausted. Hmmm...

Was the test in extreme heat?

[DaveDash]

My impression of 'weakened' is a normal unit such as a fit unit that is sick or already worn down from heavy fighting. Unfit is well, like me.

[MeatEtr]

To me, it doesn't really matter what it's referred to or described as. It's just another level of fitness in the game for a total of three.