Small Arms ammunition sharing...a idea !

[Wiggum]

Im unhappy with the current system of sharing ammunition for small arms.

If i have a group of infantery into a building with no ammunition left, they must leaving it and go into the next IFV, truck or something to grab ammunition and go back into the building again.

My idea is that if i drive a vehicle that has suitable ammunition next (actionspot) to the building, the trench or whatever, the infantery resupplys themselves without running around and boarding. It should just be abstract.

I think in real life maybe one or two guys will go to grab new ammunition for the hole group.

Or if another group with enough ammunition is in the same building (trench, actionspot ect.) they could share it too.

To manage the resupply with ammunition for two or more groups is to much micromanagement at the moment.

What do you think about this ?

[handihoc]

You don't have to send the whole squad/section to the truck. Split them into teams and send the smaller team to get enough ammo for all.

Abstracting in the manner you suggest won't work, imo. There is always a risk that, in exiting the building and entering the truck (or vice versa) they could come under fire and take casualties. Abstracting it would remove that risk.

[Lanzfeld]

Also...

For those who play WEGO it is no big deal to "manage" this.

However, I would like to see squads pass around ammo to fellow squads in short supply.

[YankeeDog]

While I don't always enjoy the micromanaging required to re-equip my squads with ammo, I agree adding some sort of automatic ammo resupply would probably create more problems than it would solve. For squads alone, being able to split the squad, and send one team back for ammo, works fine for me.

I would like to eventually see a way to share ammo between squads. It's frustrating when one squad empties out their ammo, but the nearby remainder of the platoon is full-up. Logically, you should be able to share ammo around somehow and keep everyone in the fight, rather than send part of the empty squad back for resupply. This is more important if the nearest Strkyer/Bradley/LAV/whatever is a fair hike away.

I would also like to see a way to resupply non-splittable teams like GMG teams without moving the entire team -- right now, you have to move the GMG to resupply the team; there's no way to send 1-2 guys from the MG team back to a vehicle, while keeping the MG on station.

I think one option would be to expand the SPLIT command to small teams, like GMG teams, allowing GMG teams to be split into a 2-3 man "gun" team, and a 1-2 man "ammo bearer" team. The "ammo bearer" team could be made very fragile (poor C&C connection, very likely to break under fire, etc.), to avoid gamey usage.

Perhaps we'll see some refinements like this for CM:Normandy. Ammo consumption, sharing, and resupply modeling will be especially important MG42 teams, which consume ammo at a very high rate. It wasn't as common to have a vehicle full of ammo right nearby for WWII firefights (though certainly not unheard of), either, so some sort of ground point "ammo cache" modeling would also probably be a good thing.

[Battlefront.com]

We will address this soon. In all honesty, we didn't foresee three years ago you people using the resupply feature of the game nearly as much as is definitely the case in practice with you guys. It's something that's come up from time to time and we've long since had it on a ToDo List. I don't know if the slated improvements will wind up in CM:SF 1 or not, but they absolutely will for Normandy, CM:SF 2, and all future CM based games.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

That's great to hear, Steve.

FWIW, I don't think the high level of ammo usage (and resulting heavy use of the resupply feature) is necessarily unrealistic. Reading accounts of real world firefights, given half an opportunity, soldiers will throw around a LOT of lead. I can't say that I blame them. And from what I understand, it's not necessarily against the directives of the higher-ups to do so. Bullets are much easier to replace than trained soldiers.

[Secondbrooks]

All i would desire are ammo caches. So light infantry troops without vehicles could fill their ammo also.

I agree that for realistic modelling sharing or even carrying some ammo for others would work well. I've read after action reports where there has been company's worth of men running between "ammo caches" and assault element (size of platoon) for several hours. Hauling hand greandes and already filled drum magazines for SMGs as assault element slowly works it's way thru network of trenches. But is it practical for game? In wargame that assault element would have died very soon. Besides i hate the concept of managing fire of my teams and squads, so need of ammo refill is smaller (USMC squad filled with ammo from AAVP or truck doesn't seem to run dry ever under my command)... In that way i'm pretty common gamer i'd presume.

[tyrspawn]

I think a very simple thing would just be to have sections rearm themselves whenever they board vehicles. A lot of resupply problems happen when you forget to manually rearm a section that has been fighting for 20-30 minutes already, but there was an opportunity to do so. In real life if you ordered a section with "red" or "black" levels of ammunition to assault an enemy position the squad leader would grab ammo from the vehicle or if not available, relay to the commanding officer that the attack is impossible. He wouldn't mindlessly run out of the vehicle to virtually suicide his men. It is also retarded when you start a mission and half of your sections start with "red" levels and you don't realize until your first dismount.

I propose:

When sections enter into vehicles and their ammunition levels are "amber," "red" or "black" that they automatically rearm to "green."

[hcrof]

tyrspawn - I think to best use your suggestion, the squad should only replenish ammo when it leaves the vehicle. That way, vehicle crews and depleted squads who are sheltering from arty fire don't take ammo when you won't ever use them again that battle.

[theFightingSeabee]

I think there should be a "load up" line at the top of the ammo list, so you can load up with one click. Not sure I like the idea of auto loading up. But you should also be able to click on another squad and exchange ammo. Nothing sucks more than having a guy with a CLU standing next to a guy with a Javelin missile, just to have them sit there and not use it. It makes you almost want to have him poke his head up and get shot just so you can 'maybe' take his missile during buddy aid. Hearing it will be fixed at some point is nice, but I REALLY wish it could make it into to cmsf1.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I like to have control over whose ammo gets replenished and how much they get.

[Ryujin]

I like to have control over whose ammo gets replenished and how much they get.

The idea would not be to remove options, but add an easy button.

Two ways I could see this.

1. Like mentioned a rearm button you hit in a vehicle and it rearms them back to their basic load, anything extra would probably be manual.

2. Another variation on the rearm command, you click rearm, then click on a vehicle and a one or two man team of riflemen runs back, boards the vehicle, gets a bunch of ammo (ideally enough for the full basic load or at least what they can carry), runs/walks back, and reemerges with the team, which automates most of it.

So a rearm button could have those two functions for mounted/dismounted.

If you move two squads on the same square, it would be nice for the "Aquire" command to work just like in a vehicle.

I don't like auto rearm on entering a vehicle as then if I say want to give the AT4s in a vehicle to another team, I can't put anyone else without AT4s in the vehicle.

[LukeFF]

While on the topic of ammo distribution: how exactly does the game portion out the amount of ammo resupplied? For example, if I acquire 1000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo and I have 8 men in my squad with 5.56mm-caliber weapons, is that 1000 rounds divided out equally among them?

[JonS]

While on the topic of ammo distribution: how exactly does the game portion out the amount of ammo resupplied? For example, if I acquire 1000 rounds of 5.56mm ammo and I have 8 men in my squad with 5.56mm-caliber weapons, is that 1000 rounds divided out equally among them?

I suspect that the engine does keep a track of who has exactly what qty of which type of ammo.

However, in practice, and especially for the smaller or more generic ammn (like 5.56mm or 40mm grenades) it seems as if the section has a stock to which individual members of the section then help themselves as necessary. Or, in another way of looking at the same thing, each member carries the same qty of ammn, which then gets automagically cross-levelled within the section after each burst of fire.

To be clear; that second paragraph is not how the engine *actually* handles ammn. At least I doubt it is. That's just the way it *appears* to work, to me.

[MeatEtr]

Two things I'd like to see is the ability to put things back. So if you accidentally grab the 1,500 of 5.56mm ammo but meant to grab only 500. Well too bad, your screwed, you gotta hump it anyway.

Somewhat related to that, the other thing is some kind of weight/mobility indicator of the unit. Since it's already modeled in the game, why not visually indicate this to the player. Perhaps just a colored number near the units status. Like for example a Veteran fit unit's default loadout could be like 60/100 lbs. and then a Green unfit unit default loadout could be like 50/80 lbs. I'm of course assuming troop quality and fitness directly impact loadout capacity/mobility.

[John Kettler]

Steve,

Great news re CM:N ammo resupply! I've wanted this in CM since that Hellcat Ridge scenario in CMBO where my ammo exhausted men had to sit around green with envy and purple with frustration while unable to obtain so much as a single round from the fully stocked reinforcements.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Battlefront.com]

Just so you guys know, the goal is to be able to take AND put back things which can be Acquired. And to be able to do this in a way that requires less steps than the current system. There's tons of ideas to choose from and we've already narrowed it down to a pretty slick one. Details, however, can't be divulged at this point because we haven't coded it yet.

Steve

[Lanzfeld]

Great news Steve.

Thanks.

Now...do we address the issue of the "instant" pick up of said ammo? What I am saying is: shouldnt it take 10 or 20 seconds to aquire 1000 rounds of 5.56?

This rather small gripe is probably not worth the programming time to make right.

[Pandur]

resupply non-splittable teams like GMG teams without moving the entire team

talk about all the non splitable squads!? i need to send 9 guys to grab another RPG or a few mags. i still think the way red squads are glued together is not a way to do it. it feels too artificial and i think it limits them more ingame then reallife.

the goal is to be able to take AND put back things which can be Acquired

good stuff, i would not like any automatic behaviour, but to put back things is absolutely needed.

[Yair Iny]

Great news Steve.

Thanks.

Now...do we address the issue of the "instant" pick up of said ammo? What I am saying is: shouldnt it take 10 or 20 seconds to aquire 1000 rounds of 5.56?

This rather small gripe is probably not worth the programming time to make right.

If the ammo is in a box, then it's just grabbing the box. Don't know if in the US Army, they have pre-loaded mags, in the IDF we didn't and reloading isn't so much about grabbing ammo, but more about putting into your empty mags (Galil has 35 rounds per mag, which doesn't match up to the standard 30 round packet, and also has a nasty strong spring which makes stuffing the last rounds quite annoying). Mind you, I never did this anywhere outside of training, so in real combat conditions, there might be preloaded mags, but knowing the IDF I doubt it

Any US/Brit/Syrian () serviceman care to chime in?

[Noltyboy]

From what ive been told, seen and experienced the GB armed forces use the lovely H&K reliability mags now, you get in trouble if you lose them as they cost (you!) about 32 quid to replace.

Ive seen 5.56 come in a can of 1000 with 30 rounds in little white cardboard boxes. It also comes in a 1000 round tin with 10 round "stripper clips" that are used in conjunction with a speed loader attatchment. Ive only ever realy used the former as the later is normaly sent to the Army/RM or the sharpe end. The only time i got the later i didn't have a speed loader! From what ive read and been told the brits tend to carry no more than 8 mags in there belt kit/fighting order and all extra ammo is kept in vehicles/Bergans in the form of stripper clips.

Disclaimer, im in the Royal Naval Reserve so dont have that much experiance off the range.

[acrashb]

I think a very simple thing would just be to have sections rearm themselves whenever they board vehicles.

Definitely not automatic. For example, you may want to use a manpower- and ammo-depleted squad to move to a high point for observation. Next thing you know, you put it in a battle-taxi and the ammo is gone and no longer available to an assault team.

Should be player choice only.

[handihoc]

I actually quite like having to decide when and who to despatch to resupply the ammo. It often adds to the tension.

What would be a major improvement, though, would be the ability to Acquire multiple ammo choices at the same time (rather than having to repeat the order for every type of ammo), and being able to drop ammo you may have mistakenly picked up or simply not need.

The ability to swap or pass between nearby squads would be useful, too.

[Lanzfeld]

What would be a major improvement, though, would be the ability to Acquire multiple ammo choices at the same time (rather than having to repeat the order for every type of ammo), and being able to drop ammo you may have mistakenly picked up or simply not need.

The ability to swap or pass between nearby squads would be useful, too.

We are lucky. Steve said this is comming, at least for WWII.

[YankeeDog]

talk about all the non splitable squads!? i need to send 9 guys to grab another RPG or a few mags. i still think the way red squads are glued together is not a way to do it. it feels too artificial and i think it limits them more ingame then reallife.

good stuff, i would not like any automatic behaviour, but to put back things is absolutely needed.

This is a very good point; with most Red squads there is no way to resupply squads short of sending the entire squad back to a vehicle, since you can't split them.

While I understand the reasons why BFC chose to make most Red squads unsplittable (doctrine, leadership & training), I do think this limitation causes more problems than it solves, as it prevents realistic use of Red split squads, such as ammo resupply, and also very simple squad-level movement drills like moving 1 team of a squad ~ 2 action spots forward (and within good LOS & hearing) of the rest of the squad as an OP/picket. I'm certainly no expert on the matter, but I really doubt Syrian infantry training/doctrine is SO lacking in squad level initiative that a regular Syrian Army squad leader would never think to send 2-3 men a dozen meters or so ahead to peek over a ridge or around a corner. Syrian Regulars may not be trained up to the standards of Western armies, but they're not the Keystone Cops.

IMHO, it would be better if Red squads were splittable, and the doctrinal and training differences were instead modeled by putting severe restrictions on what Red split teams can do, especially when they are out of LOS and/or hearing of the Squad leader. For example, they could be made very brittle under fire, have poor spotting, and perhaps some player commands should not be available. For example, you could prevent the player from issuing direct target commands to Red split teams.

Cheers,

YD