Is Scimitar gaelic for "Rolling Coffin"

[SlapHappy]

This thing is definitely not as menacing as it looks. Anything larger than 7.62 and these things die fast.

The crews seem to know it too, because they tend to jump out of them before things progress to that stage.

Sorta wish we had gotten the Sabre instead, the 7.62 chain gun would have been most awesome. The low number of HE rounds makes this less suited to combat infantry.

[JonS]

From Wiki:

FV107 Scimitar is an armoured reconnaissance vehicle (sometimes classed as a light tank)

[SlapHappy]

I realize that, but so's the LAV, and it just seems more....survivable. In the game, anyway.

The LAV seems to be able to stand up pretty well against the BMP-1 and 2 and is only outclassed by the BMP-3.

[Field Marshal Blücher]

The Scimitar is REALLY weakly armored (oops, armoured! ). This is yet another thing to keep in mind; you REALLY need to use the Scimitar for RECON and long-range standoff fire against weakly-armed opposition.

[flamingknives]

You haven't got the Sabre (and wouldn't want it) because:

It's out of service a good few years now, the CVR(T) units having rationalised on Scimitar.

It hasn't had the thermal imager upgrades of Scimitar, so it would be stuck with II gear.

The chaingun* fires at 550 rounds per minute or so. The GPMG fitted to the Scimitar fires at 700-900 rounds per minute, so it's the Scimitar that has more firepower.

As long as there are no 14.5mm HMGs on the battlefield it does quite well.

*Doom has a lot to answer for in this regard. A chain gun is, in reality, a single-barrel, externally powered, machine gun with a modest rate of fire. Think of a M242 scaled down to 7.62 rather than any kind of gatling weapon.

[Statisoris]

From what I've heard and seen from friends at home and people around the net, I feel that the word "Chaingun" has aquired some sort of magical "uberweapon" meaning these days. I think it must be because of how video games and popular media portray and use the word "Chaingun". Example: "The 80ft tall robot fired its 100mm chaingun at the other robot." I don't think most(99%) people could really cite an example of a real chaingun and explain roughly what makes a chaingun a chaingun.

Sorry about the minor venting, this has annoyed me for some while now.

[SlapHappy]

The Scimitar is REALLY weakly armored (oops, armoured! ). This is yet another thing to keep in mind; you REALLY need to use the Scimitar for RECON and long-range standoff fire against weakly-armed opposition.

The only problem is: I'm supposed to go into that area and take those buildings away from a dug-in enemy with effective AT assets with those "light" recon armored units. And since those units are usually getting skagged before I can even get an ID on the enemy doing the shooting - It seems like the enemy is doing a better job than my recon units of detecting.

You really seem to pay a penalty in spotting when moving vs. a stationary enemy. Even when your units are supposed to be "scout" units. Whatever that means.

In CMSF, the term seems to mean "write it off early". If it weren't for the 2 challengers firepower (and staying power) and the highly effective artillery, the proper tactic in this scenario would be "sit still and wait for backup".

[Hev]

There definately seems to be something we dont get regarding spotting. My question is how do you get the incredably lighty armoured recce units to carry out thier battlefield role effectively?

I understand that we as the player are responsable for using the terrain so assuming weve done that well what else must we do to maximise spotting chances ie: coverarcs Vs not, buttoned or unbuttoned etc.

A definative answer from Battlefront would realy help on this seeing as spotting your enemy is often the deciding factor in a battle.

[SlapHappy]

Yeah. I've been pretty measured in my criticisms of CMSF, because all in all I think it's an incredible simulation, but this question of spotting and effective use of recon units is still puzzling me. Either their advantages aren't fully fleshed out in the system, or I simply can't figure out how to exploit them.

Right now, I can only regard recon units as "less effective" combat units because of my lack of ability to understand their role in the actual game engine.

[LuckyStrike]

'Recon by being shot to pieces'

[MikeyD]

or I simply can't figure out how to exploit them

In one scenario in particular I got into the habit of racing my Scimitar to the back of a nearby 3 story building, bailing out and dashing to the roof to have a look around! Recon is as recon does.

[SlapHappy]

In one scenario in particular I got into the habit of racing my Scimitar to the back of a nearby 3 story building, bailing out and dashing to the roof to have a look around! Recon is as recon does.

You could do that with a Volkswagen

[George MC]

Yeah. I've been pretty measured in my criticisms of CMSF, because all in all I think it's an incredible simulation, but this question of spotting and effective use of recon units is still puzzling me. Either their advantages aren't fully fleshed out in the system, or I simply can't figure out how to exploit them.

Right now, I can only regard recon units as "less effective" combat units because of my lack of ability to understand their role in the actual game engine.

Might be that in your average CMSF size map they are too close to the fighting. Guess most recon stuff is done by stealth and perhaps at longer distances. Or screening the main adavance/line and bugging out when the bad boys show.

[pad152]

I wonder, do recon units even receive a spotting bonus? One would think recon units would be better at spotting (due to equipment and training).

It seems just like snipers their spotting is no better than normal infantry which means, getting in the enemy weapons range where the enemy is just as likely to shoot first before they are spotted!

[SlapHappy]

Might be that in your average CMSF size map they are too close to the fighting. Guess most recon stuff is done by stealth and perhaps at longer distances. Or screening the main adavance/line and bugging out when the bad boys show.

Which would be great if this had some practical purpose in the actual game.

I just had a thought though....isn't their a little-used point value capability for simply spotting enemy units? Couldn't you simply augment your points that way with these units without engaging at all? Then bring in the big boys to rack up enemy kills? Of course, I would want to have the ability to move these units off-map in this case, which is something we can't currently do.

Of course, there is still the problem that most of my recon units don't seem to spot better than the enemy non-eyeball guys......

[SlapHappy]

A little more back on-topic, the Scimitar seems to be loaded-out to fight mostly armored units, but I can't see this thing going toe to toe with anything but maybe a BTR.

The insignificant amount of HE ammo makes it less of a threat to the soft-skinned targets it could face down. The integrated MMG helps, but is everyone else than impressed with capabilities of most vehicle MG's in the game? They do seem to suppress better than small arms, of course, which gives some merit.

[hcrof]

Right, I was going to wait until an expert posted something about the scimiter but until someone has a better explaination of what they are expected to do I'll describe something that I was told about the scimiter.

Basically, the scimitars job in this guys unit back in the 70's/80's was to race to a concealed position, let the Soviet armour roll over them and report back before abandoning the vehicle and making their way back through to what freindly territory was left.

I get the impression that the crew is supposed to leave the vehicle and peek over ridges etc while the gun is used to chew up BRDM's or other vulnerable units from a distance. The gun has quite a low signature as well I think so they may be able to ambush BMP's (Again from range) and disappear before they know what has hit them.

Their main strength is their high speed over all terrain and ridiculously low ground pressure. In fact there is a recorded incedent in the Falklands where the tank commander jumped out of a Scimiter and sank up to his waist in mud! The gun was designed purely for self defence.

[MikeyD]

You could do that with a Volkswagen

Remember when the WWII title hits you'll be doing just that - or more precisely, a Kubelwagen! The whole 'point' of Scimitar is its an improvement over driving down the main road in an open Jeep. Not that its some super-uberweapon.

Finding some deflade then exiting the vehicle to gain a better view is a perfectly rational tactic for recon (recce). Remember, the Bradley CFV carrys a 4 man scout team in back to do just that.

Scimitar does have another role too, of flank security. In that role its expected to put a few rounds into the enemy to keep their heads down then alert the main body of trouble. In both roles discretion is the better part of valor.

[stikkypixie]

I wonder, do recon units even receive a spotting bonus? One would think recon units would be better at spotting (due to equipment and training).

It seems just like snipers their spotting is no better than normal infantry which means, getting in the enemy weapons range where the enemy is just as likely to shoot first before they are spotted!

I don't think there are spotting bonuses, but don't quote me on that.

[MikeyD]

I've always had problems noticing spotting bonuses in CMSF. I've been repeatedly assured, for example, that an unbuttoned Syrian tank spots better than a buttoned Syrian tank. But since it isn't club-over-the-head obvious like in CMx1 I can barely detect the difference. So I'm no judge for spotting bonuses.

[Pandur]

I wonder, do recon units even receive a spotting bonus?

yes and no, if the vehicles have specialized equip, it will give some bonus when compared to the same vehicle without it. and no, 4 eyes see the same as 4 eyes when we talk infantry.

I've been repeatedly assured, for example, that an unbuttoned Syrian tank spots better than a buttoned Syrian tank.

this is true, for sure. however since TCs have wronge AI behaviour attached to them in 1.11, like humvees had, you only unbutton your syrian TC once and i fear its carried over to 1.20 despite fixing the humvees

[JonS]

You really seem to pay a penalty in spotting when moving vs. a stationary enemy.

Just so, and that is exactly the way it should be. Google "why things are seen".

I happen to have an (unclassified) British doctrinal publication in front of me as I sit here. Let me quote from the section on reconnaissance:

5. PRINCIPLES OF CLOSE RECONNAISSANCE OPERATIONS

a. Stealth. Throughout the planning of close reconnaissance operations, it should be borne in mind that the underlying principle guiding British reconnaissance doctrine is that of reconnaissance by stealth. If the battlegroup close reconnaissance troop/platoon has to obtain information by overt or aggressive means, or conduct offensive operations, then it must have suitable additional assets included within its TASKORG. It is the responsibility of the tasking commander (normally teh battlegroup commander) to ensure that the close reconnaissance troop/platoon is suitably organised for the tasks to be undertaken.

...

10. TACTICAL HANDLING

a. ...

b. Task organisation. Reconnaissance by stealth is the key. The principal role of weapons held within the troop/platoon should be regarded as that of self defence. Although normally operating under the protection of CS artillery and/or battlegroup direct fire wpns, the battlegroup commander must be clear of the penalties to the security of his plan should these weapons be required to expose themselves in order to extract or assist his close reconnaissance. If, in the battlegroup commanders opinion, there is a strong likelihood of aggressive action being required in order to gain the necessary information, then it might be more logical to task other assets (tanks, fighting patrols?) to acquire this information and to use close reconnaissance in conjunction with these assets or employ reconnaissance separately for other tasks. ...

Emphasis in original.

You know, in the latest British Forces Trailer, when it says "A Whole New Army!"? They're not kidding

[ChrisND]

Just so, and that is exactly the way it should be. Google "why things are seen".

Then google "How not to be seen".

[-Eddie-]

I think some of you need to get an idea of just how small the Scimitar actually is and why it may not be practical to overload the thing with armour;)

And you moan about its recce abilities? I'd be happy it can even get anywhere:eek::

[Pandur]

hey thats good pictures, gives you a idea why it gets swiss cheesed by syrian HMGs

just the german weasle looks more cute cant wait to get it in NATO module, hopefully