British Mortars!!!

[afreu]

I noticed there are two different munition types. How is smoke going to work, just like the standard smoke command or is there an option to change munition types?

[Battlefront.com]

The issue with firing out of LOS is that it's really not all that practical to do in almost all situations. This particular mortar simply isn't designed to fulfill that role. It's a high trajectory, medium range direct fire weapon. There is, however, one exception to this and we haven't ruled out addressing it.

The one exception is when the gunner is firing at something specific, like a small courtyard where he can see the outside wall. If he knows the enemy is on the far side of the wall, he could theoretically put a round or two on the far side of the wall instead of the near side. That's because he can make a simple adjustment to fire a wee bit further beyond what he can see. But it's very limited in practical value because:

1. The mortar isn't highly accurate. Sure, a good gunner in good conditions probably could drop a round inside a small confined area, however...

2. Ammo supply is limited. Trying to expend more than a few rounds to get a direct hit on something isn't generally advisable because that could mean not having fire for something else.

3. This mortar (like all mortars) is primarily for suppressive fire and not killing. Popping 51mm mortar rounds at a trench or an open field means that near misses achieve suppressive effect. If you're trying to suppress someone inside a walled compound, any rounds landing outside of it won't have any effect. Even if they are a meter or two off target (which would be damned fine shooting).

4. The larger the enclosed space being shot into, the less likely any single round will achieve the goal of suppression (or casualties). Since the ammo supply is limited, effectively this means that if you can't see exactly where the target is then you're probably wasting ammo firing at it.

5. From a gameplay standpoint it is realistic to allow the player to directly target a space out of LOS provided it is very, very close to where the break in LOS actually is. I'm talking about within 5m or so. Meaning, in real life a gunner could overshoot an LOS blockage by 5m or so, but probably not 10m or greater. Sure, sure, sure... of course he COULD do this, but again... he wouldn't because the ammo supply is limited and the chances of doing anything are simply too small to warrant expending such precious ammo.

In short... we're well aware that firing a wee-bit out of LOS is feasible in real life. However, from what we know the effect would be rather disappointing in most cases and therefore possibly not worth the development cost to support it.

Again... nothing I've said in this post has anything to do with "true" mortars, like what you'll get in Normandy. They're quite different beasties.

Steve

[BillyR]

Steve

u from Scotland?

[Battlefront.com]

Besides loving Scottish beer and the term "wee bit", I have no connection to Scottland

Steve

[Other Means]

Scottish beer? Really?

[Battlefront.com]

Scotch Ale is yummy and also requires direct LOS to be effective

Steve

[Homo ferricus]

Scotch Ale is yummy and also requires direct LOS to be effective

Steve

I beg to differ on the latter claim.

[Meach]

I am well qualified to say that you cannot call a man a friend till you have shared a few pints of fine scottish ale. There are some beautiful ales to be had. Kentish red ale is also delicious.

[theFightingSeabee]

Scottish Ale is my favorite beer. Good choice, although you don't really need LOS to the beer, but you do have to be in range!

Yes Steve, the short range is exactly what I'm talking about. Currently, you can't lob artillery over a wall, you can only shoot at the wall (that you can see). I still could imagine a guy with a hand-held mortar firing too far and walking the rounds in, or vice-versa.

Moon, obviously you wouldn't have much luck trying to hit a grid without working out the exact math and propping it up at just the right angle. My main point is that mortars can be lobbed over hills, compounds, trees, or anything else blocking LOS. Having plotted OCT's in the military, our main reason was to hit things out of LOS. Anything within LOS was covered by .50 cal, MK19's, and small arms. Closer low-lying areas were also covered by claymores. I'd be surprised if any US or British force in the field did not have maps accurate enough to call in a fire mission over a hill. And this excludes OCT's. The only real advantage of OCT's are that the math is already done so they can be quicker on the draw.

While hitting grids is impractical with the hand-held mortars, I think it would be realistic and worthwhile to do something like Steve is talking about with letting them hit over walls. At the same time, the big guns should be able to hit anywhere on the map.

[Battlefront.com]

I still could imagine a guy with a hand-held mortar firing too far and walking the rounds in, or vice-versa.

See previous points as to why this is just imagination There's just not enough rounds on hand to go splurging like that, even if the coms were set up to pass back meaningful information to the guy with the mortar.

Again, this is not intended on being indirect fire weapon, even though it can manage it under certain circumstances. "Real" mortars, on the other hand, are different little beasties.

Steve

[c3k]

Quick anecdote about indirect fire accuracy and modern ops.

I've just finished reading Michael Yon's "Turning Point in Iraq". (Former Green Beret, embed reporter, blogger; large web presence.)

In an account from late 2007 or early 2008 he is in a US TOC (Tactical Operations Center). They watch enemy combatants run into a house in a city (I forget which one) with video downlink from a UAV. After some discussion, they decide that 120mm mortar would be the best solution to killing the enemy without causing too much collateral damage.

Situation: TOC, maps, GPS, US mortars in a known position, GPS coords for target.

Result: mortar spotting rounds come in WAY off target. The corrections are not getting them any closer to the target. After several unsuccessful iterations of fire correction the TOC cancels the mortar strike.

Even hitting a known target with all the modern gizmos can be a bit more difficult than it seems.

(No, this does NOT compare to a soldier walking rounds up to and over a wall which he can see.)

I thought it was interesting that all this talk of "just radio in the grid" doesn't always lead to the the results one would expect.

Enjoy,

Ken

[Thomm]

Read that only the platoon HQ has one of these mortar thingies, btw. (unconfirmed)

Best regards,

Thomm

[Combatintman]

Yes that would be the case for the 51mm mortar. For WW2 types, it is the descendant of the 2-inch mortar.

[theFightingSeabee]

With a hand held mortar, how can you NOT walk the rounds? The only way not to have to is if you're a crack shot. If you're only going to shoot a couple of rounds, then why bother doing so if they are so innaccurate?

Ken,

Sounds like the mortar team was screwed up. Operator error is a part of just about any profession. So are hardware malfunctions. Even weather conditions can affect accuracy. Stuff is going to happen out there. But that certainly does not mean that ALL mortars/artillery (especially in this modern age) are going to be inaccurate.

[Battlefront.com]

Remember you only need to "walk" rounds onto the target if you don't have a direct means of aiming (i.e. firing indirectly). Which is my entire point If you fire the thing directly you don't need to walk rounds onto target. If you fire it indirectly then you would, but you don't have the ammo nor the gear for it.

Think of the 51mm mortar like a M203 grenade launcher. You don't need to fire 3-5 grenades to get a hit, right? Yet the M203 is hand held just like the 51mm mortar is.

Here's a good video of it in use (thanks to Combatintman for finding it):

Be forewarned... colorful language used in that video

Steve

[theFightingSeabee]

I understand what you're saying. But to me it just seems like if you're firing at 60 degrees angle, then you're lobbing rounds. He has to estimate distance to target, then hold the thing at angle x to hit the correct range. Then fire in a high arc to hit the target. At least an M203 has leaf sites and it's not uncommon to have to take multiple shots to hit the right spot. The guys in this video are even behind a wall without direct LOS at least while in firing position. Probably not hitting bullseyes. Either way, it's a wierd little weapon and I can't wait to use it!!

[ChrisND]

Situation: TOC, maps, GPS, US mortars in a known position, GPS coords for target.

Result: mortar spotting rounds come in WAY off target. The corrections are not getting them any closer to the target. After several unsuccessful iterations of fire correction the TOC cancels the mortar strike.

Even hitting a known target with all the modern gizmos can be a bit more difficult than it seems.

Former mortar maggot 2 cents:

Although I obviously cannot say for sure, this sounds like a case of bad operator head space and timing. Mortars are very simple, manual beasts, and all the fancy surveillance in the world won't overcome a fire controller who forgot to enter a value, a bad gunner, an AG who is mishandling the mortar, etc.

It's like sticking a really nice scope on a gun; it may make it much much easier, but you still need to know how to squeeze the trigger properly to hit squat.

[Mishga]

Around 2004 I took part in a military awareness program and I got to handle the British 51 mortar, it looks really basic, you wonder how it can hit anything. A square metal foot you plant into the ground, a goretex "gator" you hold to protect you hand. It has an adjustable arc depending on which way you twist the whole tube. This is for high and low trajectory shots. You could pretty much angle it down to put a round through a window or door while still being braced.

The tube itself can be locked in one angle for consistent shooting. There were two types of 51mm, the usual drop and launch and the pull cord type. Both worked on the same principle. It was reasonably heavy for a small mortar and the ammo was shared out amongst the team. It was purely for suppression and smoke missions. Never was it envisioned for sustained accurate fire.

Some of the experienced operators could prop up the base plate with flat stones or suchlike to add a few degree's of trajectory.

I also got my hands on the 81mm mortar and the TOW launcher. Me being a dainty little thing it was hard to lift the TOW launch unit. Meach was incredibly jealous of my time with the hardware. I was not allowed to take any photo's especially of the Anti-Tank kit which was a shame.

[theFightingSeabee]

Thanks Mishga. I had no idea they could use it with a low trajectory. I've only seen it used... like a mortar.

[Lethaface]

I always believed 'direct-fire' is about 'linear-directed' fire

[MarkEzra]

"Military Awarness Program"? As if Meach weren't enough...you went and took a class?...

[Kozure]

Thanks Mishga. I had no idea they could use it with a low trajectory. I've only seen it used... like a mortar.

I've heard Second World War stories of the Ordnance SBML 2" mortar (the predecessor to the current L9A1 51mm mortar, but fairly similar in design and usage) even being placed against a vertical surface and fired almost flat.

Unusual, perhaps even extremely rare, but not outside it's range of use.

As for accuracy, Britsh commandos used the 2" mortar to very good effect against the defensive positions around the various artillery emplacements to the flanks of the main landing at Dieppe. I don't have it handy, but I recall accounts of one mortar team being very accurate.

I think accuracy varies considerably with operator and the circumstances of the firing, much like many other weapons.

In WWII at least, the 2" mortar was mostly for smoke, but it was not ineffective for light suppression missions and the British retained it long after most other armies dropped it. Whether that's because the 51mm is a better design or sheer bloody-mindedness, I'm not sure. I think Canadians retained the 51mm as well, well into the 1980s, though I believe they have dropped it even from reserve armouries by now.

[-Eddie-]

Just a few quick videos I found on YouTube you might like:)

(51mm is at 1:20)

(3:33)

[Meach]

"Military Awarness Program"? As if Meach weren't enough...you went and took a class?...

When she got to the TA camp in Forfar the lads in the section asked how her hubby felt about her being on a course full of tough and handsome soldiers. She said, and I quote " oh he knows how Battalions work so a section of soldiers is nothing really" as she handled an SA-80 doing the unloading drill and checking the breech. Allegedly you could hear a pin drop. One of them said to her to get back home and get me on the course

I was so jealous that she got her hands on, at the time, some shiny, cutting edge hardware but she had a great time.