Yair Iny Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 I was rubbing my eyes in disbelief - seeing on map mortars which I thought would only be in WW2. Can you please provide more info about them? Will we be able to target indirectly? Will we be able to use someone else's LOS? How will they work? Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnedpuppy Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 They have to have mortars in WW2 so were probably working them in parallel, glad to see they are now in SF, hopefully this will allow them for US Forces. (have I just spoiled a surprise?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Did anybody see the impact in the video? I fail to spot it! Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Yeah, great news. I really hope they add a Red on-map mortar in the game soon; if not with the Brits module, then with the "other NATO" module. From what I've read, the use of 82mm, and even 120mm mortars at relatively close range, using visual sighting and/or pre-registered aim points, has become a relatively common practice by insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. This tactic is nothing new - the Viet Cong used it a lot in the Vietnam war, and it probably goes back further than this. So I'd love to see this tactic available to Red in CMSF. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Very nice addition! Will the tracer effect stay in? I'd like a muzzle blast effect (especially at night), but the mortar shell tracer seems like it would reveal too much info about the mortar location. Kind of like a built in fire location radar for the other player. Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Glad you like it, but this isn't the same thing as the sorts of mortars you guys are thinking about. It's more akin to a grenade launcher. It can only be fired effectively if it has direct LOS because it lacks pretty much everything needed to fire indirectly (including sufficient ammo for spotting rounds). You might ask, then, why do the Brits even have this thing if it isn't much different than a grenade launcher. Well, the Brits finally asked themselves the same thing a few years ago and decided to remove the mortar from inventory But since it has the ability to fire in a higher trajectory arc it has some ability to hit things that a more flat velocity weapon, such as a grenade launcher, can't achieve. So semi-officially the 51mm mortars will continue to be used for some time to come. As we've explained over and over and over and over again, on the modern battlefield mortars are not used "on map" except for super emergency conditions. Even the light mortars are designed to be fired indirectly from a safe distance using spotters. This was absolutely not the case in WWII for light mortars because ranges were shorter and communications equipment not as prevalent. Therefore expect on-map mortars for CM:Normandy and not CM:SF. When CM:SF 2 comes around the behavior (and animations) will be in the game engine already so we'll be able to offer on-map mortar behavior as an option for modern combat. Having said that, I do agree with Yankee Dog that "insurgents" do use direct lay for their mortars because, in a sense, they have some of the same communications and training issues that were found in WW2. However, remember the environments where these things are being used allow them to be used directly from extremely long ranges. Ranges greater than what are practical in CM:SF. For example, in Afghanistan a mortar positioned up on the side of a mountain can see for probably the full range of the 82mm mortar. So why not just use direct lay when the situation is optimal like that? But I don't think it's practical to do that in CM:SF with any regularity. Again... if everything we needed to simulate on-map indirect fire mortars existed today we'd likely include that behavior now. But the 51mm mortar the Brits have isn't the same thing. It's a sort of half step in that direction and we don't feel the need to prioritize the other half of the step right now. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Did you find any actual use for the mortar during beta-testing that sets the mortar apart from grenade launchers? Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Other Means Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Did you find any actual use for the mortar during beta-testing that sets the mortar apart from grenade launchers? Best regards, Thomm Range and ammo load. Makes a big difference. Remarkably, you end up using them like you did for the organic British mortars in CM1, just a longer ranges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Sweet. I was wondering about that. I have seen it used indirectly; or at least over a 15 foot wall where the shooter couldn't see anything. Since it is aimed by hand it never struck me as accurate. If it's set up to work like artillery, can you set up linear and area fire missions? How long does the preparation take? Seems to me like the Brits just jam it into the ground and fire away. http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07tb5lI8mG4YO/610x.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 A question I posted in the other thread but yet to be answered: is there really no tripod, or anything other than your best arm to steady the aim of this thing? If not, aiming the mortar must truly be an art. Edit to add: ah! question answered by thefightingseabee, nice link! yeah, it must really be an art! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Field Marshal Blücher Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 If it's set up to work like artillery, can you set up linear and area fire missions? How long does the preparation take? Seems to me like the Brits just jam it into the ground and fire away. http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/07tb5lI8mG4YO/610x.jpg Pretty sure Steve's post implies it's not set up to work like artillery. Most of the pics seem to indicate that too, you just use "Target" commands. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Steve So this mortar can or cannot target units out of it's line of sight if LOS can be established by a friendly in contact with the firing mortar unit? Or can it only use area fire against those targets? Never mind, Steve, you answered the question already in your statement. I just didn't read it well enough. So this mortar, in-game can't actually target enemies in the fashion depicted in the video one of the other posters refers to in this thread. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 The video was taken from within the game, so yeah... the mortars can be used as they as seen in the video As I said, this is a fairly oddball piece of equipment. It's not set up for indirect fire, but it's extremely light and can be fired quickly by a single soldier. You'd think the utility for such a weapon would be so limited that it would be withdrawn from service. In fact that was the plan. However, action in Afghanistan has delayed that from happening for the time being because it's proven to be a very useful weapon in addition to rifle grenades and medium mortar fire (Brits don't have 60mm light mortars yet). Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingknives Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 In service it is very useful for deploying smoke and illum rounds and can fire larger HE rounds further than a 40mm grenade launcher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapHappy Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Sorry...I meant the Youtube video where the Brit soldier is firing over the wall with the mortar...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 I've seen many videos of Brits using then indirectly (especially lobbing them into compounds or into/over tree lines), but I guarantee they've been using them so much that they know just how to use it. I would assume that, while they seem like an oddball weapon, they serve a great purpose. That is that the grenade launchers will only go to 400m while hitting large artillery at 400m might be dangerous. There's that kinda naked zone where the enemy can infiltrate using defilade. Since they're so cheap, they can be used a lot compared to weapons like the javelin. It seems to serve a purpose and the Brits use them well. Can't wait to use them in the game! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 T It's not set up for indirect fire, Steve So it will only be used if you are in LOS in the game... I've seen many videos of Brits using then indirectly (especially lobbing them into compounds or into/over tree lines), But it seems that they are used for indirect fire, out of LOS; indeed this may be the primary reason why they have been found to be so useful. If this is the case, surely we should be able to use them in the game as they are used in RL? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theFightingSeabee Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 This has been one of my big arguments all along. Artillery can shoot over hills; all they need is a grid. If I was a pixeltrooper and saw an enemy fall back behind a ridgeline, I'd want to be able to call a fire mission over that ridge. I guess I never understood the rationale behind having to have LOS to the target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 How do you aim at a grid using a handheld tube? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 If this is the case, surely we should be able to use them in the game as they are used in RL? The answer to your question is yes, obviously. I understand, however, that they do not divert resources for coding up this capability right now for a puny, hand-held mortar. Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 The answer to your question is yes, obviously. I understand, however, that they do not divert resources for coding up this capability right now for a puny, hand-held mortar. Best regards, Thomm "puny"?! its a game breaker! yeah yeah, I can see how a disproportionate quantity of resources could be spent on it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomm Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Hmm, you made me actually look up "puny" in a dictionary. Seems to sound derogatory! Perhaps I should apologize to the brave little 50 mm!! Best regards, Thomm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivodsi Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 hmm 'puny' is not necessarily derogatory, but certainly disparaging. I have no idea what sort of power they have: more than a grenade, but less than an rpg perhaps? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 How do you aim at a grid using a handheld tube? Ah, yes, the age-old conundrum of using a round peg for a square hole. Thanks for the peek. Now, get back to work so we can download the Brits! Regards, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVulture Posted April 22, 2009 Share Posted April 22, 2009 Indirect or artillery fire to out of LoS spots looks like being one of those marginal things. There are times it should obviously be possible, and (like area fire / god problem) times it will be extremely gamey. The current system makes it possible to hit out of LoS areas with area fire, as long as you can spot two points such that the target line / circle covers the out of LoS section. The penalty you pay is that you usually have to make the target area cover stuff you don't care about hitting, so the barrage is less effective. With a normal targetting weapon (where you target an action spot, rather than an area) like the Brit mortar that isn't going to be an option. At the same time, allowing indiscriminate out of LoS firing isn't really ideal either - you can spot enemy with one unit, spend five minutes figuring exactly where they are on the map, and then hit that precise spot very reliably with impunity for the mortar. Maybe allow non-LoS mortar shots, but either (a) make the spread of the shots much larger, ( apply a random offset of the target position from where you intended (and maybe shift it every 30 seconds to stop players sticking with the 'right' answer when they get lucky, or © some combination of both. Or only allow shots at action spots within 20 meters of an action spot that is in LoS of the mortar. Not allowing indirect fire at all is certainly the easiest solution though, so once again, it depends on how much time is available for the coding, what other priorities are, and what unintended consequences lurk around for allowing indirect fire in one form or another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.