Command Delay In CM:N?

[Lurker765]

Even when I play RT I micro manage. I find it hard to believe that when an enemy ATGM fires upon your M1 and you had no clue where it was until that shot people don't hit pause and scout around for it and then bring everything to bear upon it. It seems foreign to me after playing so many games of CMx1 that you wouldn't drop whatever you were doing and order everyone to knock that thing out (unless they were already preoccuppied with something even more important) before it takes out your tank. That means hitting pause and seeing who can either target the enemy directly or area fire.

Maybe I'm just a natural micromanager no matter what? It is just bizarre to me that someone would not hit the pause button in these type of situations and then cycle through their units trying to find someone to bring pain to that ATGM crew before it knocks out your tank.

And on your quote:

Quote:

In real time mode you can give a slew of commands to some units on second 1, unpause, zoom over to a bunch of units, pause and give commands, etc. All in all, you get the same number of commands issued over a 60 second period but they aren't all slamming the CPU at the exact same second and the load is more spread out rather than uneven lumps. The expensive point of calculating things is spread out and less noticeable impact occurs due to the player pausing the game every few seconds.

And then guess what? You have "natural" Command Delays Thanks for making my point for me so well

I don't understand this statement. There is no 'natural command delay'. There is me choosing not to go over to that unit and give it new orders. I can if I wish, but if it isn't relevant then I don't do that. If I do choose to give that unit new orders at that very second it will then carry out those orders immediately. These are two completely different topics so I don't understand this comment.

I also didn't say that RT players micromanage more than WEGOers. I would imagine that people used to Age of Empires will not be as detail oriented as someone used to TacOps. If you take a micromanager (me for instance) from WeGo to RT then it just means I have the opportunity to micromanage even more. If you take a RT player and plop him into WEGO then he will probably give orders to his units like a normal WEGOer and give lots of orders since they have to last for the next 60 seconds. WEGO players don't want their units sitting around for half a turn without orders. RT players never have that problem since they can bop over there and issue new orders willy-nilly.

By definition RT has more possibilities for abuse of cramming a bazillion orders -- that is a fact. Whether people choose to do so depends on the individual and what is at stake. I would imagine that the competitive ladder players are pausing as often as they can in RT if they had the option. Less competitive situations mean less pauses. Playing against the AI rather than a player is (for me) less competitive and things slide more in the game and require less detailed ordering.

I guess this all boils down to style of play. Way back in the old days when I played against the CMBO AI I got through a turn twice as fast as I do when I play a human nowadays. I have to be more careful and think things through since a human's traps and ambushes are much harder to extricate out of and survive.

[Lurker765]

Oh, and on the comment of people not complaining about command delays being gone. I think there have been many, many items much higher on my complaint list throughout the history of CMSF. That I was whining about those rather than command delays just means that CMSF is in much better shape now than it was in July of 2007.

When ATGM missiles were going through the ground and then hitting my tank and destroying it I wasn't complaining about command delays. Now that those issues are in the past, command delays have bubbled to the surface of my brain. That is a good thing for BFC and shows the dedication you have to fixing the problems in the game.

[dima]

It's one reason why you don't see threads about this like you do for something like Quick Battles or (most recently) trenches.

Steve

I think this is due to human nature. People, and especially CM players, are control freaks, so at least subconsciously they are perfectly fine with not having command delays. Putting them in will move game closer to reality, however there has been good arguments that this is still a game and ultimately it is not intended to fully simulate reality. Which is fine.

[Battlefront.com]

Dima is, I think, right on the money about why it hasn't been a big complaint so far. In fact, it's exactly why people complained about it existing back in CMx1. And that is some players, probably the bulk, want instant control over their stuff. Even if they say they want high levels of realism, they don't want it in this particular area.

And as Lurker765 points out... it does come down to style of play. When I played CMx1 I tried to get through my turns as quickly as possible and NOT spent a half hour agonizing over every possibility for every single unit. I wanted to fight the battle as a whole battle, not fight 30-60 small 60 second battles. And that's how and why I play RealTime as my primary method of play.

I can spend lots of time watching my troops do what I told them too without giving them a single new command. Some of my units will sit around, doing absolutely nothing, for 10 minutes or more. I doubt there are many WeGoers that voluntarily allow that to happen. Which is fine... each to their own, no need to feel one is superior to the other.

And to answer Lurker765's comment about the ATGM... I tend to look around for it WHILE the game is playing out. So yup... that might mean I get socked with another one while trying to ID. In my mind that's realism and I like it, even if my Abrams goes kerbloom

Like most RealTimers... I'd love to have a 30 second replay feature so I could review some stuff now and again, especially "hilarious" goofs High up on my personal list of things I want to see, but it's not going to happen any time soon. Technically quite difficult to do.

Lurker765,

Oh, and on the comment of people not complaining about command delays being gone. I think there have been many, many items much higher on my complaint list throughout the history of CMSF. That I was whining about those rather than command delays just means that CMSF is in much better shape now than it was in July of 2007.

Well, I for one heard more about craters not being visually reset in WeGo games than I have about Command Delays. I for one would not rate that more important than Command Delays Definitely tons more about the Blue Bar, even though all it allows people to do is skip ahead the first play through and not a single thing more. Which is my point... with any wargame there are PLENTY of things to complain about, even ones that didn't have a bunch of bugs to start off with. Just look at the hundreds of thousands of CMx1 posts... I promise you they aren't all praising our glory And yet, out of all the complaints and bug reports and what not... very little about Command Delays. And even then it's mostly like this one... "it would be nice to have them back again, but I can live without them".

Not that this really matters. We want to reintroduce Command Delays so the lack of feedback is irrelevant. Volume of a complaint isn't the best way to be heard. Sometimes asking nicely and making a logical argument ONE TIME will get something in. We decided almost a year ago to put Command Delays back in, and there was no massive outcry that lead to that

Steve

[Lee]

Steve: The Blue Bar does more than that. It allows you to watch parts of the action on the battlefield near the beginning of the turn, without seeing what happens later in the turn, and then rewind back and start over so as not to spoil the surprise of a big fight that might be coming up later in the turn. This is a huge plus when major showdowns, like a big tank battle, are about to occur later in the turn and you don't want to see it until you are ready.

Also, with the Blue Bar, the system can calculate all the combat before having to display it. This gives maximum frame rate when you do watch the battle, since the computer can put all of it's processing power into one thing, displaying the battle in 3D as fast as possible.

[Battlefront.com]

Lee,

Steve: The Blue Bar does more than that. It allows you to watch parts of the action on the battlefield near the beginning of the turn, without seeing what happens later in the turn, and then rewind back and start over so as not to spoil the surprise of a big fight that might be coming up later in the turn. This is a huge plus when major showdowns, like a big tank battle, are about to occur later in the turn and you don't want to see it until you are ready.

Hmmm... I don't really think of that as significant. Certainly doesn't rise to the level of "WeGo is broken without the Blue Bar" line of argument.

Also, with the Blue Bar, the system can calculate all the combat before having to display it. This gives maximum frame rate when you do watch the battle, since the computer can put all of it's processing power into one thing, displaying the battle in 3D as fast as possible.

Ah, yes... that's definitely true for some systems or at least portions of battles when things get hectic. Since that was the reason for reintroducing the Blue Bar I kinda thought that was an obvious one, so I didn't mention it But you are correct, it does have a positive impact on the game for those who had systems previously struggling to keep the framerate up. It doesn't change the GAME any, just the enjoyment of it (which of course is related).

Again, I'm happy we got the Blue Bar back in and people are happy about it. But in terms of it's real impact on gameplay it's extremely small proportional to the flak we took for not having it in. Compare this to Command Delays, which do have a significant impact on gameplay, almost going unmentioned. Yet complaints about visual bugs, which have zero gameplay impact, in WeGo were mentioned frequently.

Steve

[silverstars]

I originally thought that there was command delay in WEGO for CMSF, I just figured, since I play blue almost exclusively with their whizz-bang toys, the comm systems REALLY worked well.

But I think they are a natural with a WWII setting. It is harder to imagine no delays between orders when comm systems are at best a telephone line or bulky walkie talkie, at worst the fastest corporal that happens to be at hand.

so yeah, gimme Command Delays. let them factor in distance from commander, quality of communication type, commander/squad quality, all that good stuff.

I still think the Take Command Civil War games had the best built in command delay system of any game i've seen, and I didn't find it obtrusive, i found it immersive more then anything else.

[Thomm]

I do not care about command delays a lot (apparently I do not have to, anyway, because I play RT most of the time), but something that should really be taken into account is the influence of leading units! In CM:SF, I do not care at all whether I keep my platoons together or not, something I did indeed in CMx1 in order to reduce command delays. I like that mechanism to give importance to leading units. I hope that there will be something equivalent in CM:Normandy that lets you keep contact with leading units even in RT.

Best regards,

Thomm

[thewood]

Wasn't that the whole point of command delays? Making you keep your command structure together (even though there were ways around it). I was very surprised that there was no communications penalty for Syrian units, which are supposedly incompetent in the leadership category. I am much more concerned about keeping leaders nearby in CM1 than CM2. Area fire is you friend at worst.

[TheVulture]

Depends on the unit leader. Remember those +1/+2 leader modifiers. They were more important than the command delays IMHO, although unlike command delays you never get direct feedback on their use, so it is less obvious. IIRC out of command units were basically 'lead' by a leader with -2 modifiers everywhere in effect, and each +/- moved you one step up or down the conscript-green-regular-veteran-crack-elite chain (did I miss a level?). Wasn't so concerned about the stealth modifier for the most part, but the morale and combat ones had a massive effect on your squad firepower and staying power under fire.

I assume the same system is in place to some extent in CM:SF (any chance of confirming that Steve?) although the firepower / routability discrepancy between the two sides is pretty large, so even out of command US troops seriously outgun Syrian troops in good command. (I just had a single marine LMG rout all 3 men of a Syrian ATGM from a range of 3-400m in two minutes, with no-one else firing at the unit. They were in pretty crappy cover though...).

Such 'minor' advantages add will add up to a significant swing when you have more evenly balanced squads in CM:N, and a player who routinely ignores it will effectively have troops a few levels lower in quality than one who plays attention to it.

[thewood]

Yeah, but from a planning standpoint, you had to make sure you had your command structure in place just to coordinate an attack. While I know there are combat penalties for being out of command, I have complete flexibility in moving units around in CMSF.

[TheVulture]

Yeah, but from a planning standpoint, you had to make sure you had your command structure in place just to coordinate an attack. While I know there are combat penalties for being out of command, I have complete flexibility in moving units around in CMSF.

But I do wonder how much of that is psychological (and I agree entirely about how I actualyl play the game BTW). Being in/out of command is not actually that obvious form the UI. Thorw on the big red / black lines as in CMx1 and I wonder if people would start paying more attention since they would have a "this unit is not as combat effective as it should be" marker in a hard-to-ignore way on the screen. And it doesn't really affect whether you win a shoot-out in CMSF so much, as change how long it takes the US side to win slightly.

The longer command ranges with US C3 equipment is another factor at work here too.

But I do think sticking the command lines back in (CM is broken without it! You hear me!!!!) would make people more concerned about keeping the lines nice and red (although not as much as adding in command delays as well would).

[stikkypixie]

I don't the miss the command delays at all. Commands like follow the bank of that winding river took way too long to come into effect and when a tank is hit by a shell but doesn't see what hit it, you'd have to wait 15s before the damned thing start to execute the reverse order you gave it. And unless you're playing consript Soviet troops, the only real advantage of keeping the red line were the command bonuses, or at least that's how I play.

I was under the impression that when unit reach a waypoint it needs some time to regroup and more experienced troops regroup faster. That sort of thing is more desirable IMHO.

[thewood]

You have the same disadvantage with the regrouping. Having a squad mill about in the open because they had to turn 15 deg. to the left to get to some woods is no more or less frustrating.

Command delays in CMSF would be somewhat of an issue because of the way that waypoints are used by a lot of people as mini-scripting. Can you imagine the delay in a move and peek type command. There, to me, should be one delay at the beginning of a set of waypoints. The other issue in CMSF is not being able to change a waypoint once placed. I always thought it was a neat feature that CM1 told you how far you could adjust a waypoint without incurring a penalty.

[thewood]

I don't the miss the command delays at all. Commands like follow the bank of that winding river took way too long to come into effect and when a tank is hit by a shell but doesn't see what hit it, you'd have to wait 15s before the damned thing start to execute the reverse order you gave it. And unless you're playing consript Soviet troops, the only real advantage of keeping the red line were the command bonuses, or at least that's how I play.

I was under the impression that when unit reach a waypoint it needs some time to regroup and more experienced troops regroup faster. That sort of thing is more desirable IMHO.

I thought withdraw worked with tanks as well as infantry.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I didn't really like the command delays, but I understand and appreciate their purpose. What I hated most was the added delay when ordering a vehicle to go down a road that had several small turns versus going down a straight road. The order is the same - go down that road. You might want to reduce the speed a little to negotiate the small turns, but the additional waypoints needed to avoid driving off the road shouldn't cause the driver to have to sit there for an extra minute or so.

[stikkypixie]

I thought withdraw worked with tanks as well as infantry.

I remember them not working that great with RPGs hits or was it near misses?

Anyway I don't see how a conscript team would follow their orders flawlessly after sitting around for a minute is more realistic than having them look where to go after each waypoint.

[Battlefront.com]

Finally... the people that don't like Command Delays show up. I was wondering where you guys wandered off to

As has been pointed out, there are two very strong incentives to keep your forces together:

1. Bonuses, at least when positive, give your units benefits if in command. Negative bonuses do the opposite, of course. So sometimes there is a disincentive to keep your HQ near by. Which ties into the second main element...

2. Relative Spotting information can only be passed around from units that are either very close to each other physically, or which are in C2 with each other. So if your HQs aren't in touch with their subordinate units they are, potentially anyway, unable to react to enemy units to the same extent as in command units can. If you keep your HQs away from contact with their subordinates, for whatever the reason, you are causing larger numbers of units to be more blind than they otherwise could be.

Now, I know this stuff is subtle. I've also seen people say that they don't notice #2 being a big issue. But as the discussions about that go it tends to be that those people haven't played Red very often, if at all. The near ideal C2 and higher survival rate of units for Blue means that #2 comes up less frequently and, when it does, tends to matter less because unit for unit Blue can hold its own very well against Red. Play from Red and breaks in Relative Spotting can be a big problem.

Now, since Red now is pretty much like ALL forces in WW2 in terms of quality of C2, the factors currently at work for Red are basically representative of how things will play out in CM: Normandy. The way Blue works is not going to be seen at all in CM: Normandy *EVER*. Your little pixeltruppen need to spend about 40 years and a couple of billion Dollars before they get even close to that

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

As has been pointed out, the primary problem with Command Delays is that they aren't very realistic. Sometimes they penalize units which in real life wouldn't be penalized, and don't penalize units to the extent they would have been in real life. So from a realism standpoint it's on very shaky ground. The concept is fine, don't get me wrong, it's just that there's no good way to implement it "fairly" in a way that can be seen as really reflecting actual combat.

Which is why we left it out for CM:SF

For CM: Normandy I am in favor of putting it back in as an option for WeGo. I do like the feel it brings to the game in terms of making it more or less difficult to move units around. As has been pointed out, it doesn't prevent unrealistic movements, which is what the feature SHOULD do if it were reflecting reality, but it does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into things. Which means it has some value even though that value isn't arguably realistic.

Steve

[Canada Guy]

I liked the command delays as well as the red/black lines to indicate in/out of command. It gave me a better sense of working with conscript vs elite troops and the UI was more immediate and not hunt and peck as I do now with CMSF.

I am wondering how else you would distinguish between using elite and conscript troops. The command delay made me realize that I could not just order my conscript KV-1 into battle and have it battle veteran PzIIIs without taking my lack of being able to maneuver into account. If conscript and elite both follow their orders as soon as they are given why would I not just purchase many conscripts instead of one elite unit? I know there are other factors but lack of immediate action was most telling on your tactics for use of conscript troops.

The more complicated the orders though the longer the command delay. We are talking about illiterate peasants many times vs literate and battle educated troops that have been trained to follow military tactics. A man given a gun and told to shoot at the woods or troops that have been trained in suppressive fire tactics will have different results and this effect is reflected in a long command delay.

So bring back

1. command delay and the more complicated the longer the delay taking into account experience levels (conscript/green units vs crack/elite)

2. the red/black lines so that we have an easily identified way to see if we are in/out of command range

3. the morale/combat/stealth ratings so that we know what to use each commander for (as the command range benefit would already be factored into the game as seen in CMSF). And befre anyone jumps all over me, yes, I know some of these are already in but I have a harder time distinguishing them in CMSF then I did for CMx1 (maybe I am just getting older).

[Dietrich]

We are talking about illiterate peasants many times vs literate and battle educated troops that have been trained to follow military tactics.

In CMx2 Ostfront, perhaps. But we're talking about CM:N, so (as far as I understand) we're talking about literate and battle-educated troops versus literate and battle-educated troops. Taking into account the armies involved and the historical timeframe, you could have regular/veteran Fallschirmjäger defending 5-to-1 against green/regular US infantry, or you could have regular/veteran Fallschirmjäger clashing head-to-head with veteran/crack Airborne. (I'm very much looking forward to playing Carentan/St.-Mere-Eglise scenarios. )

[TheVulture]

For CM: Normandy I am in favor of putting it back in as an option for WeGo. I do like the feel it brings to the game in terms of making it more or less difficult to move units around. As has been pointed out, it doesn't prevent unrealistic movements, which is what the feature SHOULD do if it were reflecting reality, but it does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into things. Which means it has some value even though that value isn't arguably realistic.

Steve

I'm in favour of leaving delays out - at least if it is like CMx1's per-waypoint basis. Delays based on quality of troops, morale status, suppression status and a sense of urgency make more sense. Infantry advancing caustiously and making contact with a tank don't need 20 seconds to organise themselves to get the hell into some cover. Units, supposedly on the attack, who have been sitting around in a house for 20 minutes with no sight of the enemy have probably had time to light a fag and grab a drink, and might take more time to get organised for movement.

Probably a pipe-dream though. I don't know how plausible it is to track some kind of 'readiness' variable for a unit which gets modified by morale, suppression and quality.

[MarkEzra]

No Red/Black lines please. The Icons in CM:SF do a far better job of explaining Contact then a line does. As Red Players know: eye contact vs voice contact vs slap 'em in the head contact really matters. Simple lines give only an In or Out understanding of a units contact status.

[Apocal]

CMSF started off with no pauses in real time in elite mode and enough people complained that this restriction was entirely removed from the game (not even just put into a new mode, but completely removed).

I can only speak for myself, but I was playing against my friend the next room over and he was using that to exploit the hell out of my pee breaks :mad:

[stikkypixie]

As has been pointed out, the primary problem with Command Delays is that they aren't very realistic. Sometimes they penalize units which in real life wouldn't be penalized, and don't penalize units to the extent they would have been in real life. So from a realism standpoint it's on very shaky ground. The concept is fine, don't get me wrong, it's just that there's no good way to implement it "fairly" in a way that can be seen as really reflecting actual combat.

Which is why we left it out for CM:SF

For CM: Normandy I am in favor of putting it back in as an option for WeGo. I do like the feel it brings to the game in terms of making it more or less difficult to move units around. As has been pointed out, it doesn't prevent unrealistic movements, which is what the feature SHOULD do if it were reflecting reality, but it does throw a bit of a monkey wrench into things. Which means it has some value even though that value isn't arguably realistic.

Steve

If you do, can you make it an one time upfront delay? Like 10 sec for normal, 15 sec for green, etc... and not relate it to the complexity of the movement? That way you still have your monkey wrench but I can order around a bend without cursing. Hell make the delay random for all I care.

And back on C2, and I doing this one for poor Thomm as much as me. Do you units get spotting bonuses when information is passed along the C2 line?