For the WW2 game are we going to get the Realy rare stuff like the Ferdinand ?

[Gryphon]

Kwazy, will we finally see the King Tiger with the very sexy Porsche turret modelled appropriately? In CM1 games it was always the Henschel turret with Porsche values under the hood.

I mean, they both look frightening, but the Porsche adds another dimension of sleekness.

[Panzerfest]

I once saw a picture of an SdKfz 251 ausf. D with a single cannon in an open turret/mount - likely an MG151, possibly nicked from a downed aircraft. I can have please?

i imagine your referring to the SdKfz 251/17 with 'Schwebelafette' turret.

http://photos.kitmaker.net/data/15858/Title.jpg

I would love to see the 251/21 'Drilling' modelled, I loved them in CMBB even though the model was just a placeholder!

[luderbamsen]

@Earl Grey,

No, this was an autocannon 15 or 20mm (if it indeed was an MG151). That Kanonenwagen would also be nice though (though I tend to loose lightly armoured AT vechiles faster than you can say "this is not a tank!" ).

EDIT: @Panzerfest,

It's possible. The position looks about right, but it didn't have any shielding. I also don't seem to recall all the "stuff" at the base of the barrel. It was basically just a "clean" barrel sticking out of the mount, I think (It was a long time ago so my memory may be playing tricks on me).

EDIT-EDIT: Hey! I found it! http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/afv/slideshow/gallery/sdkfz251_hzoom.jpg

[Earl Grey]

@luderbamsen: Then it's probably the one Panzerfest has posted above.

@Gryphon: Too bad there never was such a thing as a "Porsche" turret, actually... and the "Henschel" turret actually was called "Serienturm". And the first turret was somewhat inferior in performance, too.

[MikeyD]

Since the game will start in June 44 Normandy that would mean variants made after June-July 44 wouldn't be in the game yet, and obsolete vehicles or vehicles not shipped to that particular font wouldn't be seen either. I joked earlier that the Jun '44 opening title meant they bought themselves some time before having to code snowfall into the game!

[Gryphon]

@luderbamsen: Then it's probably the one Panzerfest has posted above.

@Gryphon: Too bad there never was such a thing as a "Porsche" turret, actually... and the "Henschel" turret actually was called "Serienturm". And the first turret was somewhat inferior in performance, too.

What was the Porsche turret officially called then? The Encyclopedia of Tanks by Chamberlain & Doyle mentions the Porsche turret and Porsche did order the first turrets for the King Tigers.

But that aside, using these terms at least everyone knows what i'm talking about since the names are so commonly used anyway and there is no seperate Sonderkraftfahrzeug number to designate either one of the turrets.

So kwazy, what say you, will you guys model the beast?

[Earl Grey]

The problem is that said Hilary Doyle, together with Thomas Jentz, is on some kind of crusade hammering the correct designations of every little piece of German equipment into everyone's brains. Why they are the only ones having access to that kind of information or why no one before ever noticed it, eludes me.

So... since we're already talking about the "King Tiger" I from now on refer to the book "Germany's Tiger Tanks" from Jentz&Doyle if not stated otherwise. The first turret - commonly known as "Porsche turret" - was, in fact, designed by Krupp. I think it's called "Porsche turret" because the VK45.02(P) (prototype model) was designed by Porsche and had the turret specifically designed. The "Henschel turret" was designed by Krupp, too - and called that because Henschel got the contract for series production. The "Porsche turret" design was dropped becasue it a number of deficiencies - the biggest being too complicated for serial production, although 50 were manufactured and put on chassis.

The simple way wqould just to call them "early" or "late" turret, but I'd rather call tehm "early" and "serial". There is no common or official designation since both were developed by Krupp, but Jentz and Doyle suggest "serial turret" for the later type.

[Battlefront.com]

Generally speaking, when we did CMx1 any vehicle under about 100 count was generally not considered for inclusion unless it offered some unique capability. For example, we did include the Jagdtiger and Sturmmösertiger because they were not just another variant of something else in the game. Plus, they're cool We plan on following a similar philosophy in CMx2 with a few exceptions.

The first exception is a result of a more focused approach to the game setting. Something that was found in only small numbers, but concentrated within the simulated setting, becomes a far more realistic thing for us to add. For example, the King Tiger with Porsche turret was produced in very small numbers and all of them were deployed at once and destroyed relatively quickly. As it turns out they were within the setting of the Commonwealth involvement in Normandy, so it's pretty much a sure thing we're going to include them since for that time and place the rare Porsche turret version was actually in the majority for King Tiger models.

The second exception is that we're more likely to include "oddball" stuff because we have the freedom to charge specifically for the work needed to put them in. Meaning, a Module containing things which can not be justified from a setting standpoint. You see, in CMx1 we had one shot to recover our investment in game content. At some point we had to say "enough is enough" because putting in more would further add cost without any chance of gaining extra sales. (we feel we completely crossed the line of diminishing returns, which is why we're never doing games like CMx1 ever again). But now, with the Module concept, we can gauge people's interest in something like a Module with odd vehicles in it, focus on the ones that people find most interesting, and then release them as a Module. You guys get the units, we get compensated, and everybody is happy (well, except for the whiners that still want us to give away expensive stuff for free ).

In a very real sense the primary logic behind the tighter focus and Module releases is to give you guys a far richer experience over time instead of giving you one experience that is, in some ways, more limited and definitely more finite. At the same time it keeps things viable for us in terms of return on investment. This is a difficult and draining industry to be in... so when we sit down to figure out if something is worth doing we base our decisions on sales projections, not Forum post count projections

Steve

[Gryphon]

As it turns out they were within the setting of the Commonwealth involvement in Normandy, so it's pretty much a sure thing we're going to include them since for that time and place the rare Porsche turret version was actually in the majority for King Tiger models.

Steve

I cry tears of joy My favourite vehicle in all its CMx2 beauty!

[Earl Grey]

Steve, that might trigger some MAJOR conspiracy theories. But it sounds pretty promising and I can't wait to see the first screens!

[c3k]

Ah, now I understand. When the full up "CM: Invasion of Normandy" comes out, those who have not purchased "CM: The Funnies" will not have access to Crabs, Crocodiles, AVRE's, etc. If you really want to win, you'll HAVE to purchase that...

Seriously, it all sounds good. Keep it coming.

Regards,

Ken

[Mord]

I've loved this idea from the start. I see no problems with compensation for more detail and expansion. It makes sense and is really exciting. It seriously is the best of both worlds...we get tighter, focused, access to specific periods of WWII and a finer tuned modeling of said environments. On top of that a better detailing of vehicles, armor, guns and troops. For this, Battlefront is payed for their time and sweat, they make money, and we have fun.

We had what? Something like 125 vehicles for CMBO plus all the guns and units for France, US, Brits, Canada, Poland and Germany (all with subsets like airborne, SS, Mountain troops)? It's a huge amount for a one time price. Huge...not to mention it would never evolve beyond that. We got pretty much the whole shebang of Western Europe in one chunk...that chunk was supposed to simulate everything that happened in France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Austria and anything else up until the next theater. CMBO, June 44 to April 45 was expected to cover, with one set of tiles, buildings and the like, all those different countries and cultures. There was no room for dealing with specifics to any single setting because it was locked in from the get go (the only way around it was creative use of mods).

I'll easily trade the all in one, everything at once aspects of the old, for specific chunks of time, place, and equipment. If say, BFC does a regular time line for WWII Western Europe, we'd go Normandy, Market Garden, Bulge...it would cover everything CMBO did, give us enough terrain, foliage, flavor objects and weather to represent everything in that theater, and give us all the stuff we had in CMBO (depending on whether they'd include French or Polish)...spread out over say 9 to 12 purchases (titles + modules). I am ALL for that. If they do the great job I know they will, then they deserve payment for it.

Mord.

P.S. I've been waiting almost 8 years to see WWII troops go at it in all their 1:1 glory...it's gonna ROCK!

[Agua]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh......... WWII CM, again. Been waiting for this since CMAK.

[Charlie901]

Just a quick question?

Is the Normandy game going to simulate the beach landings on D-Day...

Something that wasn't included in CMBO.

[Mord]

Just a quick question?

Is the Normandy game going to simulate the beach landings on D-Day...

Something that wasn't included in CMBO.

I am pretty sure it won't...much for the same reasons they gave for CMBO.

Mord.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct. No thoughts of immediate support for Normandy landings. We'll see what happens later, though, and leave the door open to a possible Module. The problem is there are different physics for movement, fire effects, and combat results in water than on open ground. We found the amount of work to be daunting for CMx1 and, in some ways, just as daunting now. However, in some ways it is easier to do. The problem is we have so many other things we want to get in so initially amphib ops are definitely not on the development calendar.

Steve

[LongLeftFlank]

Yes, to heck with the exotic stuff. Stick to the knitting and get your 10 star reviews, then branch out in the modules.

Get the key elements of the bocage and ville fight nailed down -- the must-have stuff like concealed slit trenches and log bunkers... and oh heck, water and bridges too.

You'll also need to add some period animations -- crew-served weapons, panzerfausts, maybe landser heaving potato mashers, as well as tweaking the standard squad animations some. Big Red One doggies and landser will look ridiculous prancing around SWAT team style with their rifle stocks over the elbow (it's hard enough watching Syrian irregulars do it now).

All that plus other loving period details like tanks that belch nice blue smoke rings when they move should keep Charles pretty busy.

[Mord]

So does that exclude the typical river crossing like we had in CMX1? I am guessing it does.

As far as the Normandy landings themselves...I always thought just having some Higgins boats we could place on the shoreline would be cool...start the scenario not from the sea to the shore but after they reached the shore. They'd add the visual flavor one would need...but then I imagine people would bitch because their guys couldn't wade and the boats weren't riding in under fire and all that.

One thing I'd love for you guys to think about when you handle airborne and IF you do Market Garden...I'd love to have gliders that we could place on the map like they'd landed. And maybe even some flavor object parachutes.

Mord.

[Earl Grey]

Wooo... Arnhem Bridge? Charles must already have coding nightmares when thinking about all the other stuff! And, notwithstanding the fact that a lot of people ALWAYS complain, something not closely modeled to the real bridge is gonna make too many people unhappy - better leave it out altogether and have people build it from other parts like CMx1...

Steve, where's our official anouncement and the first screens?

[c3k]

Weasels? Are Weasels going to be included? C'mon, you KNOW you want them...

Ken

[luderbamsen]

Bump:

So, can anyone tell me what this is then?

http://military.discovery.com/convergence/topten/afv/slideshow/gallery/sdkfz251_hzoom.jpg

[Earl Grey]

SdKfz251/17D - field modification, I think. 2cm Flak, although I cannot say which type. Later (production) version:

[John Kettler]

luderbamsen,

The angle's unfortunate, but I think it's an SdKfz 251/21 1.5 cm oder 2 cm FlaMG Drilling auf mittlerem Schuetzenpanzerwagen. See Bellona Handbook No. 2, Part 3 GERMAN ARMY SEMI-TRACKED VEHICLES 1939-25, M. Schuetenpanzerwagen 251, by Chamberlain and Doyle, page 24. See also here.

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/pit/3515/251/251-21.htm

This guy, though, thinks it's a 251/17. If so, it bears little resemblance to what I have in the above reference, page 22.

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/pit/3515/251/251-17.htm

What I can, say, though, after further digging is that the gun is a 2 cm Flak 38. Those ring mounts are dispositive regarding this. See WEAPONS OF THE THIRD REICH by Ganders and Chamberlain, page 132, which under Remarks notes "...also fitted on a variety of self-propelled mounts."

Regards,

John Kettler

[Earl Grey]

But if it si indeed a Flak it cannot be a 251/21 since that mounted the 20mm MG151/15 or MG151/20; also note that the 20mm ammunition is different form the Flak38. (see Panzer Tracts 15-3, pp. 55-64)

Regarding the 251/17 it is stated that it mounted either a KwK38 or Flak38; I have to admit, though, that photographic evidence is scrace at best for that vehicle. (see the above, pp. 50-51)

[luderbamsen]

@John Kettler & Earl Grey,

Thanks. I also found out where I had seen it. It was indeed the Grossdeutchland book, which also came up with the aircraft turret explanation (multiple-source confirmation would be nice though, but it is indeed very little photographic evidence to work with). Those rings do indeed look like the FlaK38, though it certainly doesn't look like a standard mount. Was the FlaK38 used as turret armament in German aircraft?